Ep109 • Why We Run: Misunderstood Trail Runners
Josh + Wolfie delve into the fascinating world of trail running to uncover the motivations that drive these athletes to push themselves to the limit. It's not what you think.
From self-expression and performance to health and community engagement, we explore the complex web of factors that inspire trail runners to lace up their shoes and hit the trails.
We'll examine the role of industry giants like Nike and TRE in shaping the running culture, and how influencers and podcasters contribute to the conversation.
Whether you're an ultra running enthusiast or just starting out, this video will give you a deeper understanding of what makes trail runners tick. So, what are the secrets behind their passion? Let's find out.
Takeaways
• More runners than ever run as a means of self-expression
• Wolfie's World of Running, a weekly monologue by Wolfrunner
• More on why Matt Choi should be reinstated to NYC Marathon
• Road Ultra Shoe category is more marketing than function
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Call RUNMORE649 (786-667-3649). Leave a message for the podcast—hot takes, agreement, anger, or joy.
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Salt Lake Footshills Trail Races. Salt Lake City, UT - May 31, 2025
PATH Projects - My favorite running shorts, Borderlands10 for 10% off.
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Josh (00:00.464)
All right, trying something new today. I'm recording this like it's a radio show. So this is kind of like a live, not live recording. Here we go.
Josh (00:26.76)
Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and ultra running podcast. My name is Josh. I'm your host. I'm the founder of Borderlands My road running is in full swing. My trail running is getting dusty on the shelf. I'm not sad about it though I'm falling in love with the road and I'm not ashamed to say it today My cast my guest is wolf runner Brian Peterson for another bad runners take you have all voted That this is your favorite thing that we do on the podcast and I thoroughly enjoyed I look forward to this episode every week. I look forward to the messaging he and I do back and forth to get
prepared for this episode. He has a vantage, a view on this sport and a take on this sport that few others do. And I just love to bounce off of it and have discussion around it. So today we're adding to that stack of great episodes. I'm introducing something today. He's introducing it. I've given it a name. He doesn't know this yet, but I'm calling it Wolfie's razor. It's like a heuristic that's designed to help you understand the type of runner.
you are or you're dealing with. Because I think by and large, we look at the landscape of runners and we assume that they're all motivated by generally the same thing. And I think that's so then we're not even able to we think we're having a conversation about running and ultra running and what you like and what I like when it turns out we're not even at the same starting point for why we're doing the sport. And so we're going to go spend most of time on that. But also we're going to hit up your boy Scott Jerrick posted about his critique of TRE. And it just confused me.
Didn't love it. Want to talk about that? What the hell is a road ultra shoe? We are legitimately curious about that. We legitimately don't have an answer for what it is other than, perhaps. Well, we're going to take a stab at it. And also Wolfie's got a big announcement. We've got some listener calls and texts and that's everything. So before we get into it though, here we go. Bad runners take.
Josh (02:31.216)
All right, Brian, welcome. I'm glad you're here.
Wolfie (02:33.54)
Yes, sir. Good morning. Good afternoon.
Josh (02:35.608)
Let's do it. What do you think? Wolfie's razor. I mean, I'm going to define it, but out of the gates that we're going to donate, we should talk about it. Then we'll talk about like what this heuristic is, but we're going to, we're going to donate some much needed insight to the industry here today on this conversation that would probably lead to much better understanding. But I think I've, I've teed up that we're going to address like the starting line, the starting point, but why don't you, why don't you kind of, you send me this message and it's got
Wolfie (02:50.3)
Bye.
Josh (03:02.106)
three different ways of thinking about who we are as trail runners and why don't you just go for it.
Wolfie (03:07.344)
Yeah, totally. Yeah. So a lot of these, a lot of these topics that I riff on with you, they come from like self-reflection and then, you know, I try and like, you know, blast it out to see kind of where others land with it to see, you know, if I'm by myself or if it resonates with anyone. so, yeah, I mean, with, with my own running experience, I mean, it's been, you know, 20 years of, you know, having running in my life, you know, from high school days to now being in my, my early forties. So.
You know, certainly evolved. and as a sports fan, you know, I've kind of seen others embrace running and pick it up, especially every four years during the Olympics and put it back down. And as a fan of the history of the sport, seems like it's gone through some, you know, large waves of runners, you know, adopting and coming into the sport trail running right now in a big boom. so yeah, it got me curious and I kind of broke it down into three buckets and then got your take on them. So.
Kind of feel like there's the runners who, who, who are embracing the sport purely from a performance aspect, right? Either at the elite level or the elite amateur level, right? Where like they're taking themselves as seriously as somebody who can do it professionally. Well, they're putting in the time, the research, you know, they're running specific workouts because they want to just, you know, prime the body to be its best on race day. second would be.
Josh (04:12.1)
Mm-hmm.
Wolfie (04:34.566)
kind of those that fall into running for, I just lumped it into health, think, right? Like mental health, physical health, community basically, right? Like making sure they're connected and plugged into people. And then the last one, which is where I thought we were seeing most of the boom recently was in self-expression. Running's kind of become this cultural cool thing to do now, or at least counter-cultural thing to do, where you can use running as a medium.
Josh (04:54.756)
Mm-hmm.
Wolfie (05:04.366)
almost like, you know, punk rock music, right? It's kind of why satisfying resonates right now, I think, as people are seeing the opportunity to use running, whether it's marathon road running and road clubs or dirtbag trail running as a form of self-expression. So now that I laid those out, you know, what did you kind of think when you heard it?
Josh (05:07.343)
Yeah.
Josh (05:17.006)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (05:22.85)
Well, I mean, when I read when I first read it, I thought, my gosh, yeah, OK, this is it. This is the core of where Borderlands came from. Like my my manifesto that I wrote at the very beginning was the child running industry is running in the wrong direction because it's marketing like Nike or Adidas. Put your stuff on the best runner out there and then expect that to lead to sales of that gear. But we are a sport that when we see the sport and we're inspired by the sport.
perhaps we'll buy something, but we're only going to buy it because ultimately we want to go do it. We want to do this sport. When I see Messi do well, I don't want to go buy a soccer ball and go kick a soccer ball. I want to get a Messi jersey. I'm going to fly to Miami and watch him play. So we respond differently. But I think had I seen it broken down so simply, I would think, yeah, it markets as if everyone in the sport is here for performance. And at the time with Borderlands, I was just thinking, hey, we're not...
I think, I think mental health, is, has, as a term has been, washed into, into almost like meaninglessness, without delving in further. But at the time I was thinking like, Hey, yeah, I do this for like my, my head. I do this for like, I believe I'm tough and I don't have any way to prove it. Like all of these things, but it would have fallen, fallen nice and cleanly in that bucket of health. But you know, for my brain, for my body, you know, I, I always talk about the gift of this sport is that, know,
It's giving me, it's giving me 10 more years of at the end of my life and hopefully quality years. And then the stress of the sport also is taking away five years of my life. So I'm net five, I'm net five more years because of the sport. But the way I always talk about was in that health space. And then the boom for that we're observing is in the self expression space. So they market as if everyone's here for performance. When a lot of people were making the move in for mental health, health community, all of these.
these things, but right now the people who are leading the way are the people who are in it for self-expression or who are marketing self-expression, which is Norta, like you said, Satisfy. think, I mean, when I think of people who really like align themselves with something to express themselves for it, those seem to be out there. think, I think Death March, a lot of the people that I see that are the ambassadors for that seem to fit that really well as well. So what I feel like this has done is given me like this.
Wolfie (07:44.603)
Yeah.
Josh (07:48.088)
better way of talking about it, thinking like, okay, big brands, you're in this bucket. I've been living in this bucket. And but now I understand that this third bucket of self expression is seems to be where the money is right now where it's at right now a lot of people are identifying. that's, that's how I took it. That's why I was so stoked on
Wolfie (08:05.636)
Yeah, yeah, so I think, you know, yeah, I mean, it definitely makes sense as to why we're seeing the effects, you know, at something like TRE recently that happened with the way that everything's kind of changing and how the brands show up there and, and want to engage with the, you know, the business to business side of it. But yeah, I mean, if you step back a little bit, like the performance aspect of it, I think is a kind of a younger group.
essentially, right. Like I think that's kind of how you get into it when you're in high school, like it's like performance based, right? It's just like any other varsity sport, you know, you want to, you know, continue to shave seconds off your, your 5k time or your track time, whatever, you know, event is you're doing right. And natural goals to maybe go run collegiately or, know, whatever your goal is, right. But it is somewhat performance based or, you know, at least it was for me. And then as you kind of get
Josh (08:34.479)
Yeah.
Wolfie (08:58.672)
Beyond that, right, you fall in love with running without the need for performance gains, then you've kind of got now, you've got to go somewhere and pivot, right? You've got to still keep the passion alive. And I think that's where, like you said, like the benefits of it, because life becomes more stressful as we get older, you know, get a real career when you get outside of high school or academia, you've got family, like, you know, running provides a different benefit to you. So it evolves, it's very fluid.
Josh (09:09.028)
Yeah.
Josh (09:20.324)
Haha
Josh (09:26.329)
Yeah.
Wolfie (09:27.484)
Yeah, I think what happened in like the seventies, eighties with everything was like, was this term jogging that became a phenomenon. Like that wasn't even in the lexicon of, of American culture anywhere. And so everybody wanted to be part of this jogging fad, right? And jogging was healthy, right? It wasn't bad for your knees. It was good for your life. Like everybody embraced it. And, and then now, yeah, I think with social media and a lot of brands, you know,
Josh (09:35.012)
Yep.
Wolfie (09:55.47)
wanting to connect with runners that are finding joy in self-expression. Now that's why we're starting to see run clubs grow in popularity. You know, there's 50,000 people running these major city marathon events now with hundreds of thousands that are applying to run for them. I mean, it's, yeah, it's a massive growth now and it's just all three of these factors probably converging together. And it's, yeah, it's a good time to be a part of running, whether you got a business or you're just a...
Josh (10:01.765)
Mm.
Josh (10:06.512)
Hmm.
Josh (10:11.311)
Yeah.
Josh (10:23.592)
Yeah.
Wolfie (10:25.21)
participant and fan of the sport.
Josh (10:27.44)
Yeah, here's one observation as I think about, and maybe you can give examples that go both ways, but when I think about people who run as, and who are in the self-expression bucket, they also are pretty darn good runners as well, which is interesting to think about. I think of Robbie Ballinger strikes me as a self-expression kind of guy, but great runner.
You know, you are in that bucket and you're speedy. You're real fast. I look at my friend TJ Bottom in Salt Lake City. He's very much running a self-expression as a means of self-expression. He's fast. Sarah Oshizuski and Max, whose name I always forget how to say his last name. They're fast. Yeah. And maybe they're just the marquee ones, but
Wolfie (11:21.756)
Yeah.
Josh (11:25.488)
By and large, it seems a lot of people in this category are also, it feels like it's people, at least all the names that I just named are the people who have grabbed on the self-expression piece of it. They're great runners, but they've never resonated with the performance, the way that performance is marketed. They never resonated with how the health is marketed, but all of a sudden the self-expression comes on. And it's like, yeah. When I was a skate kid, like when I was a skater punk, like they knew how to market to me for self-expression.
know, skateboarding, you know, nailed that. Now trail running is starting to dabble in that. And this is maybe one of my, things that annoys me most is all these brands Satisfye included saying we're marketing like skateboarding. And I don't think anybody is marketing like skateboarding. Nobody is, nobody is nailing skateboarding. But it is fun to talk about and it's fun to be on that trajectory. What do you think? Do you see the self-expression like camps or, you know, being better?
really like good runners or is this just those just happen to be the people that are out front?
Wolfie (12:26.67)
Yeah, this just came to me when you listed some of these names and kind of how, you know, as I was growing up, I, I looked at myself, like, think running is now acceptable as part of the Renaissance man or woman identity, right? Like I always kind of wanted to be that person, you know, that was like, an Anthony Bourdain, right? Like, you know, there was not one thing that made them up, but like, whatever they insert themselves within, they were recognizable, right? So like, when you think of like,
Josh (12:39.376)
Mmm.
Josh (12:50.722)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Wolfie (12:55.706)
Robbie Ballinger, right? Like he's got more going on for himself than just the act of running. And that's, it's not just, okay, that's actually celebrated now, where I think in prior generations, it was really just, you brought your running to the table and there wasn't much behind some of these giants of the running world in the seventies and eighties. Like we know the names because they were great American distance runners, but we don't know anything about them really beyond that, you know?
Josh (13:17.872)
Yeah.
Wolfie (13:25.744)
Like social media wasn't their fine fare on them, but I don't necessarily know if maybe they were interesting personalities either. So I think just running is now in a place where, you know, it can be a compliment to somebody who's a Renaissance person, right? Like they're well cultured outside of running and they are able to kind of just blend together, you know, running as everything else in their life.
Josh (13:43.216)
Hmm.
Josh (13:50.031)
Yeah.
I like that. And because of that, because now if you think it from a business perspective, that person maybe has a deeper pocket. And maybe that's why those brands, at least on the surface right now, appear to be, they're not winning, but they're gaining the most market share, the ones who are marketing to self-expression, because people are grabbing onto it.
Wolfie (14:14.429)
Yeah. Well, Nike's in a free fall. I was thinking of, yeah, I was thinking about this with Nike specifically because, you know, they were the, the, the king of running for the nineties through probably up until COVID basically. And it was because they had every icon and running in their shoe during the Olympics or any other major event, right? Like Michael Johnson with the gold spikes, you know, Galen Rupp, you know, on the, on the, on the track and then converting to marathon. Right. But like.
Josh (14:27.226)
Yeah.
Josh (14:34.288)
Hmm. Yeah.
Josh (14:43.919)
Yep.
Wolfie (14:44.443)
You even had guys that transcended sports outside of running that made Nike cool within running. Tiger Woods, right? Like I think he transcended running for the Swoosh brand. He became kind of like pre-fontaine for the brand that made Nike just overall cool. And then, you know, you had obviously the effects of Jordan still, but then you kind of got into this next generation and like Elliot Kipchoge had his run where he was just shattering records and everything.
that he spoke about that was greater than running performance was still dependent on his running performance. Cause you've seen since COVID when his results haven't been there, his message doesn't resonate as loud because he's not, he's not that self-expression person. Nike led with performance to justify, you know, no human is limited. Well, sorry, like the minute the results went south, that message doesn't sound as authentic anymore.
Josh (15:18.576)
Mmm.
Josh (15:26.338)
yeah.
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah. You're actually quite limited.
Wolfie (15:41.764)
Yeah. So I don't know. think from a business standpoint, brands should look at Nike as like a cautionary tale to always kind of be out ahead of this or, you know, at least listening to the pulse of what's going on out there to, to pivot when self-expression no longer is leading the way and the exciting kind of, you know, theme of the moment.
Josh (16:00.192)
Yeah, it is interesting then to see. So this is one of the reasons that I don't. I mean, I a lot of reasons I don't think skateboarding and no one's really capturing the spirit of skateboarding. And it's even the self expression. I mean, I think of satisfied there. They're still put it. They are still grabbing like the best like athletes. Versteeg will position himself as this guy who just loves running, but he won. He friggin won the first coca-dona.
Like, you know, he's a good runner. In some ways it frees brands up to say, okay, we can sponsor other types of athletes. But then that challenged me to think, do I just want to see any old athlete? Like, what's the dream athlete that we'd want to see as the poster child of the self-expression movement? You know what I mean? Is it someone who's a great runner? Does anyone come to mind for you immediately?
Wolfie (16:54.812)
I mean, there's room for both. I think one of the best pieces of media content to come out of ultra trail running has been some of the stuff that got put together around Jim, but you couldn't script it, right? Like Jim's such a unique athlete that he was doing things there for a moment during COVID that were fascinating. Like the New York Times piece, did you ever see that? one that, okay, yeah, you should go back and look at it because the...
Josh (17:08.033)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (17:18.992)
I don't know if I did.
Yeah.
Wolfie (17:22.78)
They had a New York Times article on Jim when he went to go do the, qualified for the Olympic trials at the marathon distance. He ran a half marathon at the qualifying standards. So they featured him because it was a fascinating story, but the imagery of it, they went and had one of their photographers out. was black and white. I mean, it looked like something that could have been within Rolling Stone. you know, I think some of the other stuff that happened in Jim's early career with the wrong turn and...
Josh (17:31.607)
Okay.
Josh (17:36.206)
That's right. The Houston Marathon. Yep.
Josh (17:46.896)
Hmm, that's cool.
Wolfie (17:52.284)
the Light My Fire series, like there's some cool self-expression moments there early on in his career. So he's a great example of, you know, the tip of the spear performance-wise and talent-wise also being able to deliver the self-expression package.
Josh (17:57.433)
Yeah.
Josh (18:08.91)
Yeah. Okay. So that's interesting. I can see like when I think of Venn diagrams, I can see performance overlapping with self-expression and that being like the most like beautiful version here. Cause that's self-expression with incredible performance. That's really inspiring. the circle that of performance overlapping with health isn't terribly exciting to me that that marketing doesn't get me.
that doesn't make me want to go run really like I always talk about like, you know, we used to go back and forth about inspiration. What inspires me? I honestly think that that's probably it. I think we've, I think we've found it. It's where self-expression meets performance performance in and of itself. So to contrast that with a Walmsley experience was the, was the time where he ran the a K, to, the, the world record, the Hoka event, it was a really brilliant way to launch whatever shoe that was,
That was fun because I love running, but there was nothing about it that was inspiring compared to what you just said. So performance in and of itself never gets me. And health in and of itself doesn't motivate me to want to go run, even though that's like an internal motivation. So performance plus self-expression is where it's at. And I think maybe I still need to work some of that out loud, but I think that's what inspires me. So Jim Walmsley running one event could not inspire me. Jim Walmsley in that piece that you just explained could inspire me.
Wolfie (19:39.088)
Yeah. And I think the difference there even kind of parse it out a little bit more is that Jim, I think in of himself on a daily basis is not going to be that guy that's going to inspire you with self-expression. You talk about somebody like Max, you know, or, know, even Versteeg on a slightly, you know, more scaled out, you know, version, they're going to inspire you just in the way that their daily self-expression manifests itself. Jim relies on others to kind of
Josh (19:53.354)
Yeah
Josh (20:05.752)
Yeah. Yep.
Wolfie (20:09.148)
put the imagery together, put the words to text, right? Like he himself is a subject that somebody can use a muse to then put something together that's super inspiring, but he's not the daily guy that you're gonna follow on social media and just seeing him live his life is inspiring. Whereas like, you yeah, somebody like Max, it resonates. You see his stories every day with his funny Strava titles and you know.
Josh (20:13.839)
Yeah.
Josh (20:18.702)
That's exactly right. Yeah.
Josh (20:28.346)
Yeah.
Josh (20:34.702)
Right.
Wolfie (20:35.002)
He lives by the beach and so yeah, he lives in just like Robbie Ballinger. He lives up in the mountains in Colorado. like just him waking up and being Robbie on a daily basis is captivating. It's inspiring. You know, it brings attention to the sport and yeah, that's the difference there.
Josh (20:44.538)
Right.
Josh (20:49.58)
Yeah. So here's what here's what I think is interesting. OK, our top three like most top earning names in trail would probably be Jim Killian and Courtney. I don't know that anyone's even coming close and maybe with Killian being way up there, assuming normal gives him cash as well. That none of them are compelled, none of them have a.
like a personal content strategy that's compelling. But I think of them as like a Serena Williams or a Tiger Woods. Like when you're that good, I don't even know that self-expression makes it onto your radar. It's being really, really good. I mean, Courtney's content is fun, but I would be shocked if she's writing it. And she is so clearly a happy person and she's inspiring. Her happiness is inspiring.
That is something that truly inspires people. But their content strategy, I mean, they couldn't have a great content strategy and be that good is my point. So someone like the next tier down, I don't know how many tiers down you put someone like a Max or something like that or Robbie in terms of performance, but they're down from that. But they also, to be as good as Jim or Killian or Courtney, there's like a singular focus as, know, singleness.
single mindedness in order to be that good. There's no way they could also express themselves in a way that's interesting. I don't know who is good at that. is like in any sport, the top three people in any sport, are they also self able to express themselves in any way that's interesting to us? I don't know if they could. I don't know if you can be that good. think it's mutually exclusive.
Wolfie (22:40.284)
I don't know. I mean, our sport is still unique where like the elites don't really ascend to an economic lifestyle that's unrelatable. They're not LeBron James, you know, making 60 million to where like as they become the one of one in their sport, like they, you can't relate to their lifestyle. Like, yeah, you can still relate to them. I just think it's over time. Like, you know, yeah, they were, they were more fascinating and probably a little less, you know,
Josh (22:49.935)
Yeah.
Josh (22:55.459)
Yeah.
Wolfie (23:09.776)
maybe reluctant to engage on that side of it. know, Jen and Courtney have had a decade long career now, which is crazy to think about. Like we're a decade on now. So who they were eight years ago is, you know, as a inspiration, you know, it's, it's a bit different. It's evolved. So maybe just time and age kind of makes it to where it changes the way that their, you know, contents produce.
Josh (23:21.327)
Yeah.
Josh (23:28.879)
Yeah.
Josh (23:36.292)
So for you as someone who's in the self-expression bucket.
How do you look at the other two buckets? what's your, like does health, let's say there's a pie here now, like what part of that pie is health and performance to you? which of, do either of those give you any, well, and maybe it's just motivation. Like give me your motivation breakdown of those three bins.
Wolfie (24:06.106)
Yeah. So on a conscious level, think health is probably zero just because the habit has become a lifestyle to where I'm not consciously telling myself I need to go do this because of the health benefits. So, yeah, right now it's a zero. But when I entered the sport, I would say it was 50 % of it. know, like running was substituting the time I was spending golfing at the time, you know, or
Josh (24:18.542)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (24:29.423)
Hmm.
Wolfie (24:36.262)
you know, doing other things that weren't, you know, healthy and productive with my time. So golf was kind of like a refuge from things that were an unhealthy distraction in my life. But now we're, you know, we're almost eight, nine years removed from that pivot. And so now the health, like, again, it's fluid. So the health moves, right? So it really just comes down now to performance and self-expression. And yeah, I mean, sometimes I get out on a run and like, I don't want to be bothered with.
Josh (24:41.007)
Yeah.
Josh (24:47.962)
Yeah.
Wolfie (25:03.92)
taking pictures and stuff. Like the run is just so good that like, I don't want to interrupt it. And then other times it's like, Hey, it'll be fun that I can create a quick little reel. I enjoy music and I enjoy like this, you know, I enjoy the Arizona desert landscape. like to me, it's like, it's super fun putting them together and finding the right song that fits. like, you know, that's where I found like,
Josh (25:07.386)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (25:16.698)
Yeah.
Josh (25:20.772)
Yeah.
Josh (25:25.654)
Yep. Yeah, I really like your reels. I think that if someone is struggling to figure out like a representation, like check out your reels on Instagram, because they, when I think of self expression, if I truly try and reduce it down, it's like there's some element that the person who's creating it is looking to do something outside of the norm with whatever they're putting out there. There's some element of creativity to it and some element of uniqueness to it.
Also, do you live by an airport? Seems like you have planes in there.
Wolfie (25:57.402)
Yeah, yeah, there's like a, yep, there's a small, small enough airport, Cessna has a few little like, you know, private jets that come in and out and then a few like military planes, you know, so yeah, exactly.
Josh (26:01.432)
little regional thing. Yeah.
Josh (26:09.496)
And the people I see doing that most of the time seem to be in the Norda camp. The like the ones who have that they've they've just really seem to have been magnetized like in that direction of of Norda. But yeah, your stuff super creative. Your your reels are super creative. And so that just I just feel like, OK, that's that's self-expression. So you're out running and you're like overflow of that run is like, hey, I'm seeing beautiful things. I'm seeing interesting things. I'm seeing this airplane. I'm seeing
this, I'm, you know, I love this part of my run. want to make sure and capture this part of my run. And then, okay, so here's my question to the self expression person. Why?
Wolfie (26:51.046)
For me personally, it's rewarding. I do it selfishly for myself. The way that I put it together are things that I would have wanted to have seen. And there's not necessarily a lot of that out there. And then secondarily, I've always wanted to do something within music or within a creative art space, but never found anything that I was good at.
Josh (27:06.852)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Josh (27:17.39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wolfie (27:20.836)
My voice is terrible for singing. You know, I'm not thrilled with how it sounds on the podcast. So that was never an option. yeah. So, yeah. So then it was just kind of like, found a actual authentic place where I had a talent both in performance. Cause I do, you know, I do love the performance side of it. with that, you know, music and visual, combination.
Josh (27:26.032)
No one likes their own voice.
Josh (27:42.273)
Yeah.
Wolfie (27:47.876)
So that's why, because I loved it like, I finally found something that was like an authentic way to express my whole self.
Josh (27:48.592)
Yeah.
Josh (27:55.598)
Yeah. Okay. So in terms of the razor, let's see, I had been working through, was going back and forth with a bunch of notes on like, okay, how do I like articulate this into a term or, know, into like a decision making thing. like a heuristic is, a way of like expediting decisions and it's just fun. I mean, there's Occam's razor.
Let's see. What did I write down for Occam's? Do know that one off top your head? It's okay. here it is. Yeah Yes, the simplest explanation is usually the correct explanation One of my favorites Hanlon's razor Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence. So a lot of times we think we think that people are just You know super mean and super hateful when in all reality, they're just dumb and they've so if so if
Wolfie (28:29.08)
Occam's razor, the simplest answer. Yeah.
Wolfie (28:50.406)
Yeah.
Josh (28:52.708)
someone being stupid could be the explanation. Most of the time it is the explanation. So I thought, okay, these are useful. I think there's something in here with what you have put forward that I would love to see turned into a razor. I couldn't quite nail it, but you know, when interpreting modern running culture, assume self-expression drives decisions before performance or health. think like if, so if our opening assumption is self-expression, because for so long the opening,
Wolfie (29:06.492)
There you go.
Josh (29:20.334)
Assumption has been performance. And I just think that's not the sport at all. More than ever, it's health and then like the dilution of the idea of mental health, which can be an episode in and of itself. I'm not saying mental health is a bad thing. I'm saying the term has been diluted and needs to be recaptured or given a new name. But I think for me, the assumption is someone's in the sport for self-expression. Like there's something about it.
that they're telling a story of who they are long before. think health is secondary and I think for 90 % of the sport perform like I want to run a little bit better than I did last time, but I don't think that's the driving force. I think it's self-expression.
Wolfie (30:02.0)
I totally agree, especially in ultra trail running, because you're making a conscious choice to kind of either pivot your road running experience into now this ultra scene. like, let's be honest, like you're probably not training any harder or at any increased level, like psychologically, like this was for me the truth as well. Like it's...
Josh (30:06.221)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wolfie (30:28.632)
It's, it's a great feeling to then call yourself an ultra runner. You know I mean? There there's, you know, an elevated, you know, sense of self when you can refer to yourself as ultra runners and the reaction that you get from people when they hear that you do these ultras is a much different response than when somebody hears that you're doing a marathon. You still get like, you know, your flowers and your kudos for doing marathons, but like, you know,
Josh (30:33.102)
Yeah.
Josh (30:42.138)
Yes.
Wolfie (30:56.26)
If you're at a dinner table and somebody hears you do a hundred mile or they're, you know, the conversation goes on pause and you get full attention. So there is this self-expression choice to be like, I'm an ultra runner.
Josh (31:04.282)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, it's one of those things, like, you everybody will have every industry, every hobby, everything kind of has that thing, but like you say it and you like wear that on yourself and you belong to something by saying that. And when I think of ultra runner, when I tell people I'm an ultra runner, I like that, I like just, I like most every single person in the world that that instantly associates me with. It's like, I know this other guy is an ultra runner.
Wolfie (31:22.001)
Right.
Josh (31:36.878)
I don't care what that guy's politics are. I don't care what that guy's day job is. I don't care how big his house is, how small his house is. If he has a house, can he drive? None of that matters. I know that if I met this person, we would have a great conversation. For at least 30 minutes, we'd have a really nice conversation and maybe we become long-term friends. There's a high likelihood of it actually. I like that.
Wolfie (31:57.468)
Right. Yeah, I totally agree. So.
Josh (32:00.558)
That's good. Okay. Wolfie's razor. I'm going to keep developing that. And, so we just have the nice concise language, but, all right, your boy, Scott jerk posted about TRE, and okay. So TRE, the running event, it's not a retail event. It's not a consumer event. It's not something that anyone who's not in the industry is going to go to, but then those who do go to it, they really, they post a lot about it. They say a lot of things about it as if.
They post about it as if the running event is a retail consumer event. Like, hey, everybody in the world who runs this is, I know you want to be here. Not it. I don't want to be at a convention. I don't want to be there. I want to, I want to see some people there. I'd love to mingle. know there's deals being done and I'm trying to do deals. So that's what conventions are good for. But by and large, any convention I've ever been to, I have not gone to it. If you know what I mean, I would travel to it and then I would just, I it's so, it's really hard for me.
I would not have said this out loud if then your Boy Scout Jerk makes this post and a lot of people loved it and it's like just this really crude take on what is it on? TRE being like a circle jerk and all this sort of stuff and it's like, okay, this felt a little bit loaded. I don't feel the need to defend TRE but at the same time it just seems like it just bugged me. I don't know, did you see it?
Wolfie (33:26.684)
Yeah, I think the analogy I came up for with this, it's like self-deprecating humor on an insider joke level because you have to be an attendee of TRE to get some of the granular specifics that he's digging at, right? I think those that laughed most are the ones that have gone and personally experienced TRE, right? So it's self-telling that...
Josh (33:38.064)
Mmm.
Josh (33:47.043)
Right.
Josh (33:53.146)
Right.
Wolfie (33:55.258)
your boy Scott Jerrick like has the ability to connect, you know, this meme in a humorful way with those that go. So he's clearly on the inside circle, right? Like it's not like he's necessarily the outsider lobbying the grenade in and like calling them out. Like he's within that circle and experiences it and then comes back and does some like self-deprecating, you know, shame on the event, right? But it's kind of like the Oscars, right? Like it's, it's the celebrities getting together and
Josh (34:03.759)
Yes.
Josh (34:08.271)
Yep.
Yep.
Josh (34:24.336)
giving each other awards. My least favorite thing in the world. Yep.
Wolfie (34:24.924)
celebrating themselves. Yeah. And then the following week, making fun of themselves for how vain they are. This is exactly what it was. It's like we get together and we applaud each other and talk about how cool the industry is and how great everything is and how we're doing so much work and pioneering the sport. And then the next week we go back and we got to shit on ourselves. So we have a little bit of a balance.
Josh (34:34.798)
Yeah, Good point.
Wolfie (34:54.982)
That's how I took it.
Josh (34:55.536)
Well, think that's really good. And here's one of the things that is interesting to me is that so much of the podcast world, so much of it, and I'm guilty of this, but so much of it does end up being just industry talk. I think this is one of the things that Joe Corcion does really well is that he's a running podcast for runners who want to run better. But a lot of times, free trail, second nature, of course, it's like the core.
premise of it, but ends up being like a businessy podcast. So sometimes like it's hard to find a podcast. I think maybe Coopcast, if you can, if you can listen to it, can get you, you know, how to run better and not the podcast should be that. And I'm trying to steer away from business, even though my mind always goes toward business. but I think, you know, in general, the, wonder just how many of the self-expression runners out there since, you know, our razor is that they all are until
proven otherwise, care. And if they don't care about TRE, and I'm also of the mind that there's for jokes, in order for someone to make a joke, there has to be some truth in it. So I'm doing, do self-deprecation is a thing of mine. Yeah, I struggle with, do I like myself? Do I not like myself? I don't know if I do. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, but I can joke in that and I can play in that space. But because there's an element of truth to it, that's the only way I can be funny with it.
And so then I feel like it's like your boy's post just came off as like, like, do you hate this industry? Like it did not that he's offending, who cares if he's offending anybody, but it just was like, this felt just kind of like hate.
Wolfie (36:31.514)
Yeah, I don't know. mean, I guess I just don't care that much about the meme page of your voice got jerk anyway. like, it didn't really resonate that deep with me. You know, I spent some time looking it over just to have a take on it came up with my take and kind of moved on.
Josh (36:41.166)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. It's probably because I'm in both worlds. Like I do industry stuff. I have conversations with industry people and over here I don't. you know, there were a lot of people that I really like who went to TRE and loved it. And so let, you know, let those people go do that. But it's just not for 90 percent. But here I am talking about it. So let's move on.
Wolfie (37:08.698)
Yeah, think, I think, well, one thing I wanted to say on it was that it's, it's, it's kind of becoming like the YouTube creators convention. You know, like how YouTube has that, that summit where like they get together all their like top, you know, subscriber accounts and they have this convention for YouTube creators to kind of like, you know, connect with each other, guess, best practices. Right. And like, that's kind of what TRE is becoming because for me, it's kind of like,
Josh (37:16.976)
Mmm.
Josh (37:32.185)
Yeah.
Wolfie (37:36.762)
Believe in the Run and Kofuze, like, they use, like, are they just influencers? Like, they get a pass, I think. But aren't they just, like, if you're a shoe reviewer, you're influencing people's decisions on what shoe to buy because you're reviewing it and giving your experience on how you like the shoe, and the brands are directly paying for them to engage. But like, you never hear Kofuze or the Believe in the Run guys.
Josh (37:44.975)
Yeah.
Josh (37:56.965)
Yep.
Wolfie (38:04.326)
categorized as influencers, they kind of get a pass on it. Are they just doing it the best way to do it to where you don't get the Scarlet letter?
Josh (38:07.182)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (38:13.26)
Yeah, I mean, okay, so this is check out this segue. I think of gear patrol. So this is they're all in the same for me. And with so I think in some on some levels, gear patrol or believe in the run DC Rainmaker, like they're going to get the stuff and they're going to give it back. Well, believe in the run, clearly they have their wall of shoes, they get the shoes and they keep the shoes after they review them.
I don't think they monetize, they don't ever get paid to say something nice about it, but I'm guessing they monetize around their community activations where it's like, okay, we have a hundred thousand people who pay attention what we do. We're going to review your shoe, give it the most honest feedback we possibly can, like it or hate it. However, if you want to do business with us, we should, you know, let's do a community activation at the New York Marathon. Gear Patrol named the winner of TRE.
was this road ultra shoe by speed land. And listen, I'm, I'm interested in running in that shoe. I'm curious. I'm, I'm ultra road shoe curious. And then the other day you said, you texted and said, what is an ultra road shoe? And then I thought, and you're to your point, it's marketing. think I've reached out to some people who would know better than me, such as Taylor Bodine.
Is there any technology happening in these shoes or is it just a they know that ultra runners are dabbling in road right now and they're trying to, you know, make sure that they can stay relevant to us. A speedland shoe that's an ultra road shoe is really interesting to me. I'm going to see if I can get it on my feet. But anyway, what are your thoughts? This is your top.
Wolfie (39:55.58)
Well, first off, yeah, so the first piece, think it's absolutely stupid that gear junkie named Speedland best in show. Or guilt, yeah, that's what I I meant guilt, yeah, yeah. No, no, gear patrol, you're right, yeah. Naming a shoe best in show for a show they didn't even officially attend, that's just cringing to me. Like, that just looks like, you know.
Josh (40:03.834)
I was saying gear patrol. Thank you for correcting me. Am I right or are right? I don't know. Okay.
Josh (40:20.021)
huh.
Wolfie (40:25.006)
I don't know, it just comes across, you know, and the fact that Speedland, you know, is celebrating it in some sort of like big way. It's like, well, you didn't even pay to be officially in the event. You did some sort of like, yeah, you opened your trunk and showed this guy a shoe and this guy then decided to write up the whole article about how you were best in show.
Josh (40:39.482)
That's really, I didn't know that.
Wolfie (40:49.37)
I get the whole gorilla marketing, like, you know, around UTMB or Western States where some of these brands get locked out. And so they find creative ways to still show up and represent, you know, around the trail community. But this is a little bit different. This isn't like an event. Like this is a true, like, you know, pay the admission, show that you're, you know, you're legitimate brand that's participating in the event for a company like Speedland to just go and like.
Josh (41:00.485)
Yeah.
Wolfie (41:16.057)
their product out of their trunk. Like it's, you know, kind of like a bootleg t-shirt that you get outside the concert. Like that was, that didn't taste good to me. That was terrible.
Josh (41:22.457)
Yeah.
Josh (41:27.458)
Yeah. Okay. Here's, here's, I just checked my messages and I just got one from Taylor. Yeah.
Wolfie (41:34.812)
Wait, before you read that, let me give you my take so I don't get influenced at all. So ultra road shoe to me, again, I think I said it to you. It just speaks to how easily manipulated an ultra runner is to buy something that proliferates their ultra running image. Like it's apps and it seems stupid to me. Like.
Josh (41:38.876)
yeah, yeah, please.
Wolfie (42:00.32)
the fact that we're going out and saying that these companies have some sort of proprietary technology from their exclusive trail experience that would allow them to create some sort of shoe that's better than a road proven super shoe. But they just call it an ultra road shoe just so that people can still stay on brand with what their self image is. like there's no like we like
Josh (42:11.95)
Yeah.
Josh (42:16.345)
right.
Wolfie (42:29.328)
I run on the roads, know, on crushed gravel for 90 % of my runs. You know, I'm not gonna go get a ultra road shoe for that. I'm gonna go get an awesome road shoe for that. Like, it's so stupid.
Josh (42:36.111)
right.
Josh (42:41.506)
That's right. Yeah. Okay. So here's what I like about Taylor is, you know, he's, he's a, he's the consummate professional. My question was, tell me like practically is anything happening in these shoes? That's not happening in the new balance super shoe or the, know, are these any other really nice $150 plus road shoes, something happening in his set? He said they trade the responsiveness.
element for light stability. There's also more focus on durability in the midsole. It's going to be a more dense and a heavier shoe. Okay, so from a logic standpoint, it's supposed to hold up for long. I mean, I guess, you know, is that the same thing with it? This is where I don't know gear is why I have the episode with Taylor every week because I don't know gear that well. Trail shoes are heavier, probably for certain reasons for their
Wolfie (43:34.716)
Yeah, you got a full outsole of rubber typically. You know what mean? You don't have any exposed foam. So the outsole is going to be full rubber. It's going to be more built up with thicker lugs. It's going to have a more refined upper. So yeah, a lot more substantial of a shoe.
Josh (43:39.043)
Yes.
Josh (43:42.905)
Okay.
Okay, so
Josh (43:53.712)
Okay, so it's just so then what we're getting with ultra what they're calling ultra road is you're getting this heavier shoe I mean I would say from it for a 50k. I'm probably I'm probably still going with the proven road shoe
Wolfie (44:05.5)
Well, let me, but you're, this is the whole point. Like you're buying an ultra road shoe for training. You're not running 75, you're not running 75 miles every time you go take that shoe out. So when you go take that shoe out, you're running on the road for eight miles and you're going to sacrifice a road shoe that's designed for an eight mile road run. You're going to sacrifice the lightweight, the breathable upper and the more responsive foam.
Josh (44:15.436)
I see. Yes.
Yes.
Josh (44:28.867)
Yes.
Wolfie (44:34.63)
to go run in an ultra road shoe? Why?
Josh (44:37.072)
Got it. The ultra road shoe then, and by that logic, the ultra road shoe is a racing shoe, right? Wouldn't you only then want that heavy, all that stuff there for your 70 mile, 100 mile, 120 mile road race?
Wolfie (44:56.624)
I know, I still think here, what exactly are the people, what are the guys running in that do the 24 hour track team? You know, they're running in the Alpha Fly. They're not running in an overbuilt, heavier, foam shoe. I mean, when Nick Curry ran Desert Solstice three or four years ago and ran 170 some odd miles on the track in Phoenix, he ran in the Alpha Fly, the Elliot Kipchoge Marathon shoe.
Josh (44:59.408)
You
Josh (45:05.6)
yeah. Yeah.
Josh (45:26.0)
Good point.
Wolfie (45:26.266)
You know, like, again, this is simply just connecting to the self-expression. It's, it, have to be aware of this as a runner because it's also a weakness. You don't buy an inferior product just because it aligns with what your identity is. Like it doesn't seem necessary for us to need an ultra road shoe.
Josh (45:29.07)
Okay.
Josh (45:34.586)
Yep.
Josh (45:46.574)
Okay, then here's my prediction. Cause I'm with you. If you enter the market as an ultra trail shoe, which Speedland did, then you can't go to a marathon trainer or something like that. You have to go across to road ultra, down to marathon and down. Because you're right now to your point, they've ultra trail across to ultra road.
Their original audience doesn't abandon them for that. In fact, their original audience, like me, even though I've never bought a pair or owned a pair or even put a pair on, I look at them and say, okay, that's still me. Is Deebo gonna be wearing some road shoes? Yeah.
Wolfie (46:27.482)
No. No, no, see, but where that's flawed, where that's flawed and where this basically becomes a negative to the Speedland brand is that they built the ultra Speedland or just a trip, not ultra. They built the best trail shoe from the best components, sacrificing nothing at a price point that said we're bringing the best trail shoe to market. Now, when you want to go to road,
Josh (46:37.743)
Mm-hmm.
Wolfie (46:54.916)
You have to still live that same brand ethos. And they're not now what they're doing is saying, here's our road ultra shoe. That is a diluted version of the best road. Ultra shoe on the market. You know mean? Like you can run ultra distances in the best marathon trainer or race day marathon shoe. You can. So for speed land to be consistent in crossing over.
Josh (47:11.45)
Hmm. Yeah.
Josh (47:18.926)
Yep. Yep.
Wolfie (47:24.282)
They have to go make the best road shoe, period.
Josh (47:27.586)
Right. But if you're an ultra road shoe, where your only competition is Mount to Coast, if you're in this sort of synthetic category, as we've declared it, this is a marketing thing. Right now, in order for them to be the best, they have to be better than Mount to Coast. I don't know anyone else who's calling themselves an ultra road shoe. Maybe there's more.
Wolfie (47:49.532)
I don't know. Yeah, possibly. mean, I hope that we don't see more of it because to me it's again, it's not doing the runner a service by producing inferior products or because again, you're doing your training at distances that already have equipment designed for that distance. you go by the Speedland Ultra Road Shoe and you go run
Josh (48:00.473)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Josh (48:11.726)
Yeah, now you're really, yeah, you're leaving the small pond. Yep.
Wolfie (48:18.588)
15 miles in it, that's not an ultra distance.
Josh (48:22.03)
Yeah, right. Yeah. they're there right now. They're big fish in a small pond. Now, the thing about Dave and Kevin is that they can go be they could go be big fish in a big pond. That's why this is where I'm saying my prediction is that they're going to competing to be the best road shoe at their price point. So I think if I think the thing they carry with them is their price point. So they're going to carry the three hundred dollar price point across to Road Ultra.
And as they work their way down into marathon and half marathon, because they can play in that space and the market size is 100X, 200X the size, I'm just thinking that's where they're going. Have they maxed out the number of people that want to pay 300 for their shoe and their niche of a niche? And so now they're working their way down. My prediction is that they're going to go compete to be the best $300 road shoe, sub-marathon five years from now if they survive.
That's what they're gonna do. That's my bad runners take.
Wolfie (49:24.22)
I don't think that they're expanding their user base by any large amount. I think what they've done is brought a product to market that those early adopters are going to buy, but nobody that's running roads is going to then buy the Speedland UltraRoad 2. Not nobody, but okay, a small, very small number. So you haven't expanded your user base or your customers.
Josh (49:32.278)
no.
Josh (49:37.742)
That's right.
Josh (49:42.998)
Yep. Yep.
That's right.
Josh (49:51.385)
Yes.
Wolfie (49:51.834)
You've just given a product now that they can add to their quiver.
Josh (49:55.63)
Yeah, it's but it's cheaper to sell more things to your existing customer than it is to go get new customers. So on some levels, if that is so if every like crazy loyal speedland customer goes and buys them, that's really that's really easy. I mean, their cost of that sale is so cheap compared to if they do try and actually appeal to roadrunners, then they're having to they're having to compete against New Balance and Adidas and Nike and all of that.
So maybe all they've done is maybe moved laterally, maybe it's a one-off thing to go against my prediction, and they're just, it's a fun shoe that their core people are gonna buy. It's called an ultra road shoe, but in all reality, it's probably gonna be their park shoe.
Wolfie (50:42.726)
Yeah. And this conversation is the very reason why I appreciate Norta not getting into road shoes as much as like you see a lot of people, you know, asking for that, you know, like you said, like they do want to be a full Norta adopter when they're not running on trails. They want to still represent the brand, right? But like, you know, they're very adamant in that they will not be, you know, adding a road shoe to their offering.
Josh (50:55.792)
Hmm.
Josh (51:02.054)
in every aspect of your life, yep. Yep.
Josh (51:12.494)
Yeah, well, I like that conversation. I don't want time to get away from us. We've got an announcement. You've got an announcement. What's your announcement?
Wolfie (51:20.378)
Yes, sir. So we've been working on this behind the scenes probably since like, I don't know, episode four or five and it evolved and, you know, took on a whole different, took it a little bit of a right turn there. But we finally, yeah, we finally shaped it into something that we can talk about now and release. It's gonna be a Wolfie's World segment under the Borderlands ecosystem or platform. Weekly show.
Josh (51:26.84)
Yeah.
Josh (51:34.207)
Hahaha
Josh (51:48.197)
Yeah.
Wolfie (51:50.684)
time, you know, just going be whatever I've got the appetite for and how, you know, entertaining or spicy or insightful, the, topic's going to be, you know, I might eventually be able to take on some of the, listener texts or voicemails on that show as well. So we can kind of have some good hot takes and some banter and maybe start building some, you know, that's what I loved about like Jim Rome and some of these early sports talk radios was that.
Josh (51:51.375)
I love it.
Josh (52:08.398)
Yeah. Yep.
Josh (52:17.763)
Yeah.
Wolfie (52:17.786)
They built some rapport with their audience base to where you would have repeat callers calling in and, know, on a weekly basis, kind of taking on Jim's take and stuff. And so that would be, that'd be really cool to see.
Josh (52:22.658)
Yes. Yes. Yep.
Yeah, I love it. So it's Wolfie's World of running and podcast. It'll be released. We're you know, we're playing around with it, but a weekly 15 minute Wolfie monologue rant. I don't know what to expect to be honest on my end. Then I think it's gonna be interesting and we'll release it. Yeah, every every week here. If you're subscribed to this podcast now, then you are already subscribed to Wolfie's World of running the 15 minute weekly.
It could grow into something and it goes off and is its own podcast. That happens. In fact, that's, that's, that's likely, but for now, this is an, this is an awesome, way to get you your own, your own thing without, you without me stepping over you when you say stuff. I mean, you're, you're so good at, concepting and bringing topics to the table that it's just, you know, our, our weekly bad runners take is, is only a portion of what comes into your head. So it'll be fun to hear how you,
how you do that.
Wolfie (53:27.952)
Yeah, yeah, no, I'm appreciative for the, the opportunity and resources that you're lending. know, I'm, I'm one of my talents is not the, the production end of it or like how you make, you know, the sausage and get the actual podcast out on these platforms. Like I'm definitely, you know, more boomer when it comes to that type of stuff. you know,
Josh (53:34.158)
Yeah.
Josh (53:39.14)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm a geriatric millennial. I think you are literally Because were you born in 82 81? I mean are you technically X generation X? I think
Wolfie (53:54.448)
Yeah, 82.
I don't know. Whatever it is, I straddle the fence and then more heavily lean, think, with the generation before my head. I don't know what it is, but yeah.
Josh (54:06.382)
Yes. Yep. Yeah, I'm the geriatric millennial. the first. I remember my whole high school life, there was no technology. So I love that. I have a fondness for that and I can talk to people and relate to people who are like that. But then also, you know, the first adopter of it. Okay. Well, that's awesome. So we're targeting what? Next week?
Wolfie (54:27.078)
I think, yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, middle of December. that's already here upon us. So, yeah, we'll definitely be able to jump into that, full steam. And yeah, I mean, right now this is kind of a slow time and trail, you know, but it's the time to kind of be a little more like philosophical, right? So the topics are going to be a little bit more like, you know, what we just talked about the three buckets of running identities, right? Like those are the types of things I think runners, you know,
Josh (54:30.832)
Okay, all right.
Josh (54:46.616)
Yep.
Wolfie (54:57.05)
we're constantly alone in our thoughts when we're out on these long runs. And so, you know, I think that connects with people. like hearing, you know, some of these thoughts manifest in long form conversation and Wolfie's World would be a way to just kind of condense them down into short conversations that you can listen to on your way to work or on the way to the gym or, you know, just during the warmup section of the run. So I'm excited for it.
Josh (55:01.264)
Yep.
Josh (55:16.207)
Yep.
Josh (55:19.522)
Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah, me too. All right. Let's get we have we have a phone number that Wolfie alluded to just a minute ago. And we also now have this. Where is it? Did I delete it? No, here it is.
Wolfie (55:51.004)
It's like an accident attorney, you know? It's like, I told you, you gotta get a jingle and you had it in like 24 hours, it was outstanding.
Josh (55:51.152)
All right.
It is Yeah I hadn't even crossed my mind I was like, my god, that's something to do. I love that All right. We hadn't had much much calls, but we did have one call We want you guys to call we want you to tell us things anything anything that's on your mind It could be related to a past episode something you want us to talk about in the future or something. That's just on your mind, but here's
Josh (56:23.536)
Thank you.
Josh (56:31.536)
All right. All right, okay. Jefferson, thank you. Let's see if I have it. Is this it? This is the original intro.
Josh (56:47.278)
Okay, so that's the one that he likes. This is the one that we have now.
Josh (57:01.136)
I don't know. I like the new one. The auto tune thing makes me laugh, but the original, which I appreciate. And so now every once in a while Jefferson, because of you, I'll make sure and put the original at the beginning. But there's nothing else other than that. I appreciate that call. I do have a text, some text here though. Let me pull this up.
Wolfie (57:18.47)
Yeah, just think of it like an audio DM, you know, like, I hope nobody's too intimidated to make a phone call these days, right? Like, I mean, some people don't even call and talk to their friends. So yeah, don't be scared. Don't be shy, you know.
Josh (57:27.341)
Yeah.
Josh (57:30.96)
Yeah, I won't answer there's no chance I'm gonna answer so you call that number I have it to where it doesn't ring it just goes straight to voicemail and you can leave that voicemail Okay, here's a here's a text that we got it says just want to say I've enjoyed the podcast very much since discovering it a few months ago However, I disagree with your take on the Matt Choi situation He not only is modeling selfish possibly dangerous behavior But this is not the first or even second time he has done it. If anything the punishment should be harsher
Wolfie (57:40.518)
Yeah.
Josh (58:00.24)
I that. don't, do you see, Brian, the dangerous, what's, a lot of people said this was dangerous. What was dangerous about
Wolfie (58:11.9)
well, you had them zip it around on e-bikes. So from a danger perspective, yeah. I mean, again, I don't, I don't, I don't know specifically exactly, but like, yeah, I anytime you got people zipping up and down the course alongside tens of thousands of runners on e-bikes, their distraction and attention levels are focused on one runner. maybe, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, it could have been a recipe for disaster if somebody would have gotten taken out a participant or a spectator.
Josh (58:16.068)
Were they like weaving through runners?
Josh (58:29.636)
Yeah.
Wolfie (58:41.21)
But I was good. I'm glad somebody brought this up. I didn't know this came up. So this dude now went and did a high rocks event and yeah, and he's under the microscope obviously because of what just happened. And now there's video footage or photography footage of him cheating basically not completing, you know, each section of the competition to its fullest. Like you're supposed to push this sled.
Josh (58:48.974)
Matt Choi? Okay.
Josh (58:59.904)
no.
Josh (59:05.561)
Okay.
Wolfie (59:08.796)
across the white line, the sled was stopped short and he moved on to the next discipline. And so there was a lot of you know, chatter about that. you know, clearly the guy can't get out of his own way. I don't know, I don't know him personally, you know, to make judgments on his character of, you know, if he's just a dishonest person and, it just for the vanity of everything, but yeah, he's definitely not made a lot of friends post that New York debacle.
Josh (59:16.332)
Okay. It... Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (59:39.182)
Yeah. Yeah. mean, my, my take was that I think they should reinstate him next year. but not if not with dangerous behavior. And I wonder if the high rocks thing, was that just like, cause high rocks is brutal. And was he just, he's just not very good. You know, was, was he, was he nefarious or was he just, you know, we got a razor here and the razor would be that he's just stupid. Right.
Wolfie (01:00:01.009)
Right.
Wolfie (01:00:06.01)
Right. Right.
Josh (01:00:07.67)
and all of these he's not nefarious he's just stupid and yeah i don't know him from adam but it's sounding like that the razor might be true with this guy that he's like you said can't get out of his own way i still think that he should be reinstated but not allowed to do content but maybe here's the problem maybe he can't be trusted and so
Wolfie (01:00:23.675)
Right.
Josh (01:00:31.96)
If they say, yeah, you can run, but you can't do in race content ever again. Well, is the dude going to sneak a camera on? Maybe that's where I'll concede and say, if you can't trust the guy, then yeah, he doesn't belong.
Wolfie (01:00:44.666)
It just shows how fickle the influencer world is, right? Like one minute you're, you know, clearly he ascended and acquired a bunch of, you know, supporters along the way. I don't know what his follower count or like what, what his size of, you know, thumbprint is and social media or whatever, but like, the minute, minute something goes south, then all of a sudden more eyes are on you and more things come to the surface. And it's just kind of like this snowball of momentum. So yeah, I mean, just for his personal health and the health of the sport, hopefully.
Josh (01:01:00.387)
Yeah.
Josh (01:01:09.667)
Yeah.
Wolfie (01:01:13.862)
We just turned the page from him because, yeah.
Josh (01:01:16.389)
Yeah.
All right. My final thought, I didn't say this at the beginning. I'm doing a run with Billy Yang in Salt Lake city on January 18th, and then a live podcast. just secured the location for the live podcast. The 5k is, up on ultra signup. It's not actually a race. It's just fun. It comes out of PR for your slowest 5k. The point is just to be out with the community and run with Billy. Flores Gehrman will be there. Some other path projects founders, and then we're going to go to the university of Utah business school, which is five minutes away from the run.
and it's a Garf auditorium and you will have to have tickets even though they're free, but it's because space is limited. I'm beyond stoked about getting to run with Billy. So that's it. All right. Let's see if I can do this here. We've got an outro.
Wolfie (01:01:59.377)
good one.
Josh (01:02:06.66)
All right, thanks for joining me, Next time.
Josh (01:02:25.498)
true. The song is finally true again. I wrote it last winter.
