ep98 • How a brand changed trail running forever
Spotify | Apple | YouTube
Hoka is directly repsonsible for the exponential growth of trail running.
The best Hoka Running Shoes Right Now.
Josh Rosenthal and Taylor Bodine (Lead Trail Reviewer, Believe in the Run) dive deep into the world of HOKA, a brand that has revolutionized trail and ultra running with its innovative footwear.
They discuss how HOKA emerged during a time dominated by minimalist trends, introducing a maximalist approach that has reshaped expectations in the running community.
Taylor shares insights about the evolution of HOKA's shoe technology, including the introduction of high stack cushioning and rocker designs that enhance performance. The conversation highlights the brand’s impressive growth, underscored by their recent success in exceeding sales projections, and its impact on the broader trail running landscape.
Throughout their discussion, Josh and Taylor emphasize HOKA's commitment to the running community, showcasing how the brand continues to engage with athletes and enthusiasts alike.
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Devil's Gulch 100 miler, 50 miler, 13.1 miles. Wenatchee, WA - July 13, 2025
Salt Lake Footshills Trail Races. Salt Lake City, UT - May 31, 2025
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Takeaways:
HOKA has revolutionized the ultra trail running market with its maximalist shoe design.
The brand's unique approach contrasts sharply with the minimalist trend popularized by Born to Run.
HOKA's deep connection to the community is evident through their support of events like Devil's Gulch 100 Miler.
Taylor Bodine's insights provide a comprehensive view of HOKA's shoe technology evolution since 2009.
The Speedgoat shoe, named after Carl Meltzer, is a favorite among ultra runners for its performance.
HOKA's success is attributed to its innovative marketing strategies and commitment to quality gear.
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Josh (00:00.876)
Well, Marley Dickinson first came on my radar with the Camille Heron Wikipedia story, because he's the one who broke it and he works for Canada running a magazine that from that story, mean, yeah, I'd read articles from an SEO standpoint when I searched for certain things, it's, it's what popped up. But since meeting Marley, it's now kind of a, I go there on purpose. I type in the URL and I go read and go see what they're up to over there because my, from my current first conversation with Marley just increased my respect for it to see this.
let's say journalistic effort coming out of that magazine. And it was just enlightening and it was interesting. It was a great conversation to talk with Marley. So I wanted him to come back. I want to talk about more of his stories. He's so much more than just the Camille Herron story, though that was a really big story. And so I've been reading him along the way what he's writing about. And we've got, we've probably got a list longer than we can even get to today of stuff I'm excited to talk about. But before we go to it, Marley, welcome. Thanks for joining me.
Marley Dickinson (00:45.792)
Okay.
Marley Dickinson (00:57.322)
I appreciate the intro Josh, you always know to gas me up. yeah, lot has happened in the running world since the Camille Heron story, but it's crazy to think that was just, you know, almost five, six weeks ago.
Josh (01:00.627)
Hahaha!
Josh (01:11.082)
Yeah, I mean, it has that story. there any updates on the story? Have you had? I would say any updates on Camille and any updates on your life as a journalist since that story in terms of people feeding you stories, people reaching out to you. So let's go first. Any updates on Camille specifically?
Marley Dickinson (01:29.223)
no. I, mean, I've, I've seen a few results, that she is still doing sort of local races in Oklahoma. but besides that, I mean, we've tried contacting Camille and, and, and, her husband, Connor Holt, a few times after, the Spartapion in Greece, which she, ended up, not finishing. that was, which was about five, six store, days after the story, was published. but we've tried contacting them and,
Josh (01:36.897)
Okay.
Marley Dickinson (01:58.639)
haven't gotten a response. I've spoken to a few other journalists. I know Connor Holt initially submitted his response to the story to let'srun.com and the Johnson brothers. But I even spoke to them and asked, know, have you heard anything from Connor? And they've also said, no, he's kind of like ghost on it. But I I don't know what the best situation for them is. It's kind of crazy the way
Josh (02:07.553)
Right?
Josh (02:13.356)
Okay.
Josh (02:26.455)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (02:28.462)
They handle things now and I think the best thing to do in their situation would just be, okay, let's lay low, have people kind of forget about it and maybe put some races on the calendar for next year.
Josh (02:40.61)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think from a coming from a PR background, PR perspective, like there's probably some hope there that people forget. Like there's the strategy. One strategy is that you get out in front of it and you get really active and you get really vocal and you try and, you know, in the movie eight miles, one of my favorite things of quote Eminem get in the final rap battle of eight mile. He gets out there and talk. His whole rap is talking trash about himself. And so when it comes time for his opponent, his opponent has nothing to say. And so it sort of kills the whole thing.
Marley Dickinson (02:58.092)
Yeah.
Josh (03:09.994)
And so she could have come out and said everything and got it all out on the table. Instead, she's gone the other route where probably laying low long enough to where by the time she reemerges, maybe only 10%, 20 % of the people who cared before still care. That's probably the play. And I guess also the assumption there is that she's being intentional about it. may just, this may be a very unintentional reactive play.
Marley Dickinson (03:34.515)
No, for sure, for sure. And I think, you know, as we've seen with a lot of athletes or superstars in their own sport, I mean, as time moves on, people tend to forget about situations that happened. And like you said, maybe like 10 or 20 % might be like, yeah, I remember, you know, once you did this. But again, like we talked about last time we spoke.
Josh (03:48.705)
Yeah.
Josh (03:53.857)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (03:57.713)
She's an incredible athlete and people won't forget that as well. mean, and you know, she has the chance to now come back from that and kind of prove herself again, which should be an exciting or motivating opportunity for her, I think.
Josh (04:13.344)
Yeah. Well, okay. So then for you personally, then, you sent, you released a story yesterday, I guess last night for me here in France and, it's, is it, is this story that we're going to get into it here? Cause it's such an interesting story. But do you think, is this the sort of thing that you're getting now? Are people more giving you more tips after that Camille story? Are they reaching out? let's see here. Yeah, I'll just mark that. It'd be super easy. Are your ears?
Marley Dickinson (04:42.385)
No, it wasn't ears, just froze. You froze for about 10 seconds. Sorry.
Josh (04:44.606)
okay, easy. Let me start that question over. There we go. Okay, so coming out of that Camille story, are you getting more tips? Are people reaching out to you more? We touched on it a little bit last time I interviewed you, but we've got this really interesting story that we're about to get to that's geopolitical and marathon and running in nature. Are you getting more tips or have people come to you now with stories?
Marley Dickinson (05:12.953)
Yeah, no, it's kind of funny. You know, we've been getting a few more tips from people all across sort of each discipline, you know, in the ultra community and the marathon community. Yeah. So we had someone come to us after the Toronto Waterfront Marathon. Our office is more based in Toronto. The Toronto Waterfront Marathon is like the biggest race for us in terms of coverage and having sort of all hands on deck because we are the source when it comes to that.
Josh (05:22.625)
Really.
Marley Dickinson (05:40.262)
But we had someone come to us with this whole cheating scandal around it that we didn't see, because we're in the media room, we're on the finish line, at the start line. But we're not in the race, but there's this whole cheating scandal that should be coming out in the next coming days around this rung club that has been, again, cutting the course to get a little bit of Boston qualifying time.
Josh (05:55.446)
Okay.
Josh (06:02.357)
No way.
Josh (06:07.234)
Okay.
Marley Dickinson (06:07.92)
Yeah, so again, someone tipped us off and gave us a bunch of material and that, so that should be exciting to come out in coming days. again, I...
Josh (06:14.836)
Okay. Have you dropped anything on that yet? Is there any article anything any link yet? Okay. Okay.
Marley Dickinson (06:20.678)
No, there's nothing on it yet. But it's going to be coming out soon. Hopefully by the end of the week. but again, sort of like tips like that. And we had someone in the ultra running tourism, ultra running community come to us about this crazy kind of geopolitical scandal about this US tourism company called Runbuck.
which is associated with the World Marathon Challenge, which is for many people the seven marathons, seven continents and seven days. So this company, you know, people pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to run these, you know, marathon or ultra races in really remote parts of the world or do these incredible opportunities. But the company is
Josh (06:52.055)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (06:56.919)
Yeah.
Josh (07:02.826)
Yeah. Yep.
Marley Dickinson (07:16.059)
kind of operating a little bit on the shady side. And we just published an article yesterday kind of bringing some of it to light.
Josh (07:19.073)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (07:24.266)
Yeah, so let's let's let's go there because I was served an ad for this once in the last few years. I can't remember exactly, but I was thinking, man, logistically, that's crazy. How are they doing it? Well, it turns out that the plane that they're using is one that they shouldn't be using. Like, why don't you why don't you fill that out for us? Like, what's this plane? What's the controversy?
Marley Dickinson (07:45.16)
Yeah, so the problem is that Runbuck is using a Russian plane that has been sanctioned by Canada, US, EU, and the UK. So a majority of the Western world, obviously with the ongoing war in Ukraine, this Russian plane... Let me just grab the name for you there. Sorry.
Josh (08:02.124)
Okay.
Josh (08:12.502)
Yeah, no, you're good. We don't I don't have a producer here on the Borderlands Show running podcast where I could call I could have them call it up for us.
Marley Dickinson (08:12.998)
It's not coming. It's Yeah. So the US government imposed sanctions on the Russian airlines Volga Dnieper earlier this year. I guess said before, Canada, UK and the EU have already imposed sanctions on this airline. This airline has been known to support Russian forces that are on the ground in Ukraine with not only weapons, but machinery.
Josh (08:26.135)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (08:42.322)
So that's why Western governments have been really pushing sanctions against this airline and encouraging their own.
their own citizens to be like avoid at all costs. They mean they support again, you know, enemy lines in Ukraine and to again, avoid at all costs. So what this company has done, Runbuck, which again is behind the world marathon challenge, they launched the Antarctic ice ultra, which is the first 24 hour race in Antarctica. And it is going on this Thursday, I believe this Thursday or Friday in Antarctica.
Josh (09:04.927)
Yeah, yeah.
Wow.
Marley Dickinson (09:28.85)
at a Russian station called Novo, which is just off pretty much just, if you drew a straight line down from Cape Town, South Africa, you would hit again, sort of Novo station. So yeah, so what, what Runback is doing is they're using a Volga Dnieper plane, flying, you know, all these people that are from the sanctioned countries and
Josh (09:40.738)
Okay.
Josh (09:50.017)
Mm-hmm.
Marley Dickinson (09:57.223)
using it that is for transportation from there and back. obviously again, running on the Russian station. but the problem is, isn't like, you know, the problem is obviously them using the plane, but I think the issue is they're hiding it and they've disguised this plane as, know, an Antarctic airlines, jets, to, you know, avoid any sort of confusion in the media or afford any sort of negative connotations that go with using.
Josh (10:07.66)
Yeah.
Josh (10:11.381)
Yes.
Marley Dickinson (10:26.108)
a Russian sanctioned plane.
Josh (10:27.148)
I mean, what a bizarre thing. it almost, when I read the article, it felt like was like cartoonish to some degree to say this enormous plane that has a tail number, like it, you can't disguise like some of this really critical stuff, but the way it looks, they like put stickers over stuff or something like, what do you know exactly how they were disguising it?
Marley Dickinson (10:49.512)
Yeah, they completely, there's a Russian flag that was on the tail of the plane. They've completely put like a white sticker over it. over the Volga Dnieper branding, they've put Antarctic airlines. So they've completely like changed the way that, but it's the same design, like, you know, the patterns are the same. And, know, the plane number is the same. it's in like, in a sense like that, like that hasn't
Josh (11:12.406)
Right.
Marley Dickinson (11:19.606)
changed. know, so it's, like you said, like planes, they're so big, it's a tough thing to hide, right? Like, you know, and that's the thing too, like, you can track and you can track flights, you can track planes, wherever they go, there's all this flight logs and, and how they exist. So it's, it's kind of very suspicious and any kind of like reason why they would do it. And I think what surprises me is that, you know, these people that have signed up for the race are paying, you know, $20,000 a US USD to
Josh (11:24.322)
Yeah.
Josh (11:36.726)
Yeah.
Josh (11:47.553)
Yes.
Marley Dickinson (11:49.706)
to run this 24 hour race into Antarctica. But I think the company Nowhere has been like, we are using this plane, this like Logan and Nipah plane. They've hidden it on their website. They've labeled over the plane on the runway. Even in the power, even in the, we were leaked to their PowerPoint presentation before to say what kind of plane they're using. And they were completely saying, this Russian plane is better.
They didn't name the airline, but they said like, this, elution LL 76 plane is more advanced than any sort of American airline. And it's great for landing on, you know, Antarctic ice surfaces and runways. So, yeah, no, it's super, super interesting, just to see, like you said, how do you, how to plane and like kind of what goes into, you know, all this.
Josh (12:34.358)
Weird. Yeah.
Josh (12:44.64)
Yeah, and I mean, the bigger question is, is like there's some of it that feels a bit laughable, but the curiosity of why, like why was the only one that could get was it? mean, that was a was a cheaper than the others like. Did you did you reach out for comment? I assume you did. Did they respond?
Marley Dickinson (13:01.527)
Yeah, no, so we reached out and we didn't get this response. It was kind of, again, a late reach out. They were kind of boarding within sort of like six, seven hours. So we assumed that, you know, they're probably have probably pretty busy at this point, but hopefully we can get a response in the next couple of days. And it's kind of like what went into this decision of why they used it. But yeah, I'm not sure. Like you said, it's
Josh (13:25.175)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (13:31.475)
Maybe it's a logistical thing of what could land on the island or what was available to them. But I guess the concerning thing is, the thing that, luckily this race isn't too big, there's only 13 to 15 people doing the Antarctic Ice Ultra. But in terms of the world marathon challenge, which is in January going seven continents, marathons, seven days, you have people from all over the world.
Josh (13:33.846)
Right?
Josh (13:44.534)
Yeah.
Josh (13:48.066)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (13:56.652)
Mm-hmm.
Marley Dickinson (13:59.53)
I mean, know, even in here in Canada, if you fly on the airline, you can face, you know, huge fines, prison time. So it's there's very strict sort of guidelines for violating sanctions in certain countries. I know in the EU, there's also similar fines that that people can fake can face if, know, they're they're found supporting the airline. So it's yeah. So it's it's it's really tricky in that sense of how serious
Josh (14:05.89)
Josh (14:10.978)
Josh (14:22.498)
Got it.
Josh (14:27.308)
So there's the consequence. I mean, there's consequences across the board for sure. Like there's obvious consequences that I was thinking about for the people operating and, but there you go. The people, your customers, you're putting all of your customers, you're exposing them to legally, regardless whether they know about it or not, government doesn't always care about your intentions. It's about what you've actually done. They've been on the airline. So they're exposing a lot of people to potential crazy legal headaches.
Marley Dickinson (14:29.279)
Yes.
Marley Dickinson (14:55.0)
Well, for sure. And the thing is, especially too, when they're spending $20,000 through this race, and then the race itself is hiding the fact that, you know, that they're operating with this airline.
Josh (14:58.944)
Yeah.
Josh (15:03.926)
And the money's going to an economy that, regardless how you feel about the war, is a country at war, and you're in some way funding that.
Marley Dickinson (15:14.392)
Exactly. yeah. And I think, like I said before, this is not what these people signed up for. I think if you were to ask all of them, you know, obviously they would say, yes, we signed up for this race. We'd like to get to Antarctica. But, you know, for how much they're spending on the price of the ticket to get there, I think the transparency from, from Rumbuck has not been, you know, kind of like diligent in that aspect. So
Josh (15:21.013)
Exactly.
Josh (15:27.682)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (15:41.943)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (15:43.477)
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of a very tricky situation and, it'll be interesting to see kind of like what, comes from the story. I know it was published yesterday, but, as they look towards the world marathon challenge, the first leg of the challenge is also at Novo station. So, and so they, meet in Cape town. They fly out of Cape town and run their first marathon in at Novo station. So it will be interesting to see, you know, in two months time when that challenge kicks off.
Josh (15:53.228)
Yeah.
Josh (16:00.386)
Okay.
Marley Dickinson (16:13.099)
you know, will they be using another Russian fleet, right? Or disguising it as this? Because I mean, there's a lot more stakeholders involved in a race like that. People are paying $50,000 to do that world marathon challenge. you know, it's and if people are doing it from all over the world, there's 50 to 80 people signed up currently on their website for this challenge. I mean, that's a lot of money invested.
Josh (16:25.662)
Yep. Yeah.
Josh (16:38.465)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (16:39.231)
in the challenge and, and, know, potentially the logistics side of things where they've, they're, they're, they're taking this money and again, feeding Russia.
Josh (16:49.324)
Well, I'll be interested in your follow-up when they come back to civilization in the coming days. It'll be interesting to see what the follow-ups are gonna be.
Marley Dickinson (16:59.103)
Yeah, I for sure, for sure.
Josh (17:01.15)
OK, next story here. This one most people know about Matt Choi at this point. He ran New York Marathon and had maybe maybe sanctions. It feels different to say sanction this way, but he was he had people riding alongside him, filming him and reportedly annoying as hell, just bothering people. But beyond that, was also breaking the rules. And so he was disqualified. I've seen a lot of people talking about the story even before we get into some more of the details of it.
I'm curious what you personally think about this because I've seen a lot of opinions. What's your opinion on this?
Marley Dickinson (17:36.757)
Yeah, no, I guess that's a good question. I I saw Matt Choi a few times on the weekend and I get his role as an influencer and obviously documenting and that's how he develops content. I think taking it on the course where you're harming other people's races or getting or any sort of special treatment shouldn't be allowed. I agree that I stand with
the New York Roadrunners ruling. I think, you know, it just, comes off as I'm better than you, or it comes off as, you know, I get this because I'm this. So I think that's sort of my opinion on it. And I was kind of, I kind of got the story and tipped it to my colleague, Anne Francis here at Canadian Running on Monday morning. I was out in New York.
Josh (18:12.759)
Hmm.
Josh (18:18.242)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (18:35.647)
Marathon post-party in New York City on Saturday nights. And this athlete, was like, how'd your marathon go? He's like, it'd been great if I didn't have Matt Choi and his two friends riding a bicycle beside me the entire time. So, and I think too, like the little, so many runners that are looking to break that sort of three hour mark and to have these e-bikes just on the course in the way of cutting off runners.
Josh (18:57.558)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (19:04.311)
kind of makes the race experience.
Marley Dickinson (19:09.493)
of makes the race experience, you know, not really enjoyable for a group of people. You know what mean? It's not, it's not what they signed up for. You know, people pay hundreds of dollars to run this race and travel around the world to go to New York city, to run the, like to do the New York marathon and to again, have someone that's not signed up for the race or have a few people riding e-bikes, not signed up for the race on the course. just think again, it's, it's, it's rude. It's disrespectful. It's selfish.
Josh (19:12.342)
Yeah.
Josh (19:24.748)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (19:39.025)
It's, yeah, it's very, I'm better than you mentality. So yeah, I'm not surprised with the way things unfolded.
Josh (19:44.266)
Yeah, I mean, if.
Yeah. And it seemed like people have really loved to hate on him. I don't I'm not terribly aware of him as I'm as I'm kind of working my way into road right now. I've been exclusively in trail for a dozen years. Could he was there a path here? Was there a route for him to do this in a way that would have been approved by the marathon?
Marley Dickinson (20:11.477)
Yeah. I mean, that's a good question. I know they do have like VIP starting, which is, like, do you know Matt James, like the bachelor, runner? Yeah. So he and like, Shalane Flanagan, and there's a few others that kind of like start after the elites. So, or, or, or their start before the elites. I don't know exactly what time, but there's like a celebrity division. I know like Vinny from like Jersey Shore was also in that like.
Josh (20:16.982)
Okay.
Josh (20:22.486)
Yeah. Yep.
Josh (20:30.848)
Okay.
Josh (20:37.831)
Nice. Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (20:40.553)
It makes sense. Like if you're like a public figure and you you don't want people taking pictures with you and like the main pack and they'll go out in the celebrity division, which kind of starts or like it's like a VIP division. So it'll start, you know, a few minutes before the elites and run off on the side of one area or as the elites kind of like pass them. Sometimes you see them. But yeah, it's I think if he was like in that division.
Josh (20:47.586)
Josh (20:57.154)
Mm-hmm.
Marley Dickinson (21:10.135)
It'd be okay to have like, you know, and if he spoke to New York roadrunners before being like, okay, I'm going to have a guy that's there shooting content of me running the race in the, in the VIP division. think, you know, that would have been okay. But from the sounds of things, you know, it was unwarranted. It's like, no one knew except him and his team that they'd be on the course on, on Sunday. And I think too, it's also a security thing, right? I mean, you know, New York, Boston, Chicago.
Josh (21:10.422)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (21:21.942)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (21:40.061)
Berlin, these are some of the biggest marathons in the world. There's 50, 60,000 people running these races. to have people that didn't sign up for the race on the course, on e-bikes, it's just a little bit of a security thing. know what I mean? I think where I stand, think it's just like, they gotta do a better job in policing that. And the thing is too, why didn't anyone from New York Road owners tell these cyclists being like, hey, please get off?
Josh (21:54.443)
Yeah.
Josh (22:02.443)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (22:09.232)
please get off the road or cut them off in some sort of area. So yeah, I mean, guess it's, kind of goes both ways, right?
Josh (22:10.686)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (22:17.568)
Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a bookstore here in Paris that I love to go to called gagliani. And it is, it's a really beautiful bookstore and you cannot take pictures in there. It's like when you walk in, it's like, do not take pictures. And I was chatting with someone in there once I was like, Hey, I'm just curious. It's a beautiful bookstore. I'd love to take a picture. Why can't I? And he said, because you're going to, you're going to ruin someone else's experience in here. I thought, that's actually not what I was saying. I thought you were like, it's being arrogant about the layout. such a
Marley Dickinson (22:40.572)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (22:45.384)
unique layout. It's this or that. it's like, saying, no, this, if I let you do this, these people are going to feel uncomfortable in my bookstore. And I'm more concerned with people feeling comfortable in my bookstore. And so the point here is, one person can't ruin someone else's experience just because they're trying to get the good footage when they, when they're, when there is a path, there is a way to do it. Right. He didn't do it. And that's goes back to the comes off as being better than other everyone else. Like I don't,
I don't have permission. I don't need it. I'm Matt Choi. I'm going to do it my own way. I think it's that to me makes sense. If you're ruining someone else's in it, that the pace that he's running at, there's some serious runners, there's some runners and they're taking that very seriously, you know, to get their qualifier and all that. So yeah, the impact on those other runners may, maybe it's a dozen, maybe it was a hundred. That's awful. That sucks for them.
Marley Dickinson (23:36.068)
I think it's a thing you're from over world to run the New York Marathon. There's people from Japan, there's people from Australia, there's people from Poland. I met people from Germany. Imagine traveling here.
to New York being like, okay, I'm gonna run, I wanna run under three, you you're trying to and you know, you're running sort of at the 258 mark and you know, some guy and his brother and his partner are on e-bikes, you know, buzzing around, whizzing through packs. It's just like, okay, well, you know, like, this is one of the most prestigious marathons in the world. Why is this happening there? And I think, you know, I don't think Matt Choi should, this might be a hot take.
Josh (23:58.689)
Huh.
Josh (24:08.386)
kills it.
Josh (24:13.387)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (24:19.034)
I don't think Matt choice should deserve all the blame. I do think New York Roadrunners should have been a little more strict on the policy. And I guess I before taking them off the course, or, again, if if Matt had intended to do this, and I know he's done it at marathons in the past, then just like run it by them and be like, Okay, well, Matt, if you're going to do this, let's put you, you know, in the VIP corral, will you start
Josh (24:29.228)
Yeah.
Josh (24:37.324)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (24:46.972)
ahead of the elites and you run your own race and you can film content and do your own thing. Yeah. And I also think too, like the way that New York Roadrunners responded is a little harsh, know, like banning them indefinitely from any races in the future. Yeah. No, you can't come back. So I think that's a little harsh. Like I think obviously like disqualifying him is a penalty in its own.
Josh (24:52.81)
Yeah, there's a way to do it.
Josh (25:00.972)
Hmm. I missed that. I heard that he was disqualified, but he can't come back?
Josh (25:11.287)
Yeah.
Josh (25:14.72)
Makes sense. Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (25:17.024)
but I think, you know, it's, it's, he made a mistake. They made a mistake. I think just being able to like, both own up to it and try to create an opportunity for him where he could do this. you know, whether it's him starting early or him doing something else and just kind of like making, you know, a mental situation instead of being like, yeah, we hate you. We never want you to come back. And just like kind of buying into the cancel culture. but.
Josh (25:30.625)
Yeah.
Josh (25:40.715)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Marley Dickinson (25:46.032)
I don't know. feel like Matt Cory, like he released apology yesterday, kind of owning it, saying that he's that he screwed up. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think, I think it was interesting. Like I don't think.
Josh (25:49.748)
Yeah, what did you think of it? Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (26:01.794)
Do I think he regrets this situation? No. Cause I mean, he's an influencer and he's probably expanded his horizon and audience to, or impressions to levels that he never has before. And you know, he's been covered by like the New York times and like, like, so do I, yeah, for sure. and I mean, I saw him twice this weekend in New York city, just like walking around and he had people filming him on the subway, at the expo.
Josh (26:09.706)
I was just thinking that, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Legend status.
Josh (26:28.502)
Really.
Marley Dickinson (26:29.296)
He was like strutting his stuff. So do I think he's really sorry? No, no. mean, I'd be crazy. Like it'd be crazy to believe that. and that's what influencers want. They want impressions. They want people seeing their page. And like in terms of a brand sponsorship side of things, it's huge. Like people are going to be like, well we want to sponsor the bad boy of running. You know what I mean? but, but I do think a party I think he does regret is, you know,
Josh (26:51.723)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (26:59.004)
I think I do think he does sincerely apologize to other runners. he, I don't think his gesture was to go out and upset other people. But I think in terms of it on a grand scheme of things, like he doesn't regret doing what he did. And I mean, banning someone from like New York road races is, know, it's whatever. But yeah, I don't know. don't know. I don't know how a lifetime band, how you kind of, you know,
Josh (27:07.68)
Right.
Josh (27:13.217)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (27:28.834)
uphold that? Like, like when we just entered the race, I was like, you know, under another name. So like, they're asking for a piece of ID when you're when you're signing up, right? So might be a tough thing to uphold. So
Josh (27:30.466)
Right.
Josh (27:34.698)
Yeah, right. don't, I, my.
Josh (27:40.417)
Yeah.
Well, sometimes when I get onto my kids, I come out a little bit hot, a little bit too strong. I ground them from, you know, TV for a month. And a little bit later I kind of come back like, okay, maybe I overreacted just a day. A lifetime band feels like a bit much. think Matt probably is net good. I'll say from what little I know, he's net good for the sport. And what I mean by that is he's got such a big audience and people are inspired by him and they're taking that inspiration and they're going out and running.
Like that's a net good. Sounds like he's, maybe he's not the type of person that I'm going to go have a drink with, but I could be wrong. I don't know if he drinks, but it feels like the punishment came out like a little hotheaded and quick and they needed to make an example of him and show everyone that it was not welcome. So I get all that, but in the end, the lifetime ban, nah, I don't see it.
Marley Dickinson (28:13.596)
Okay.
Marley Dickinson (28:30.432)
you
Marley Dickinson (28:35.647)
Yeah, it's like you said, like he's, I know there's been a lot of people taking his side in this side of things where it's just like, you know, he's, he's a guy that inspires so many people and he has such a huge following and he's brought so many people to running. Like he is, he in the way the sport has gone over the past few years, the new thing is like the hybrid athlete, you know, people that like workout and also are able to, you know, go to the gym and you know, think Matt Shawry is one of those
Josh (28:46.08)
Yeah.
Josh (28:56.02)
Yep, the Nick bears. Yep. Yep.
Marley Dickinson (29:03.809)
kind of leaders of that movement. And a lot of people see him again as an inspiration and seeing like, okay, well, it doesn't matter. know, if you go to the gym, you can still run marathons. You can still push yourself like this and be able to accomplish, you know, these things. So yeah, I think, I think, I don't know. I do think there's wrongdoing by both sides, but it's, yeah, it's crazy how much hate he has gotten over the past few years.
Josh (29:05.932)
Yeah.
Josh (29:25.175)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (29:32.939)
few days, And now I know not to bite, not to, yeah, sorry.
Josh (29:34.144)
Yeah, he will, from what I understand, he's, he's receiving, I had seen some other creators say that they're getting people reaching out to them. Just, you know, this was their moment that it emboldened them to reach out to many run creators to tell them how much they hate them. Someone else was posting about that. So think on some levels, there's this reality of like, you know, creator culture can sometimes it's a thing that inspires people to run. But those who've been in the sport and maybe it's a little bit entitled on their end, but to say, you know, you.
you all are sort of bastardizing or exploiting the thing I love most in life and the way that you're doing it. don't love the way you're doing it. So I think there's also been that that side of things that people saying, you know what, not only is it Matt Choi, this was too much. Now I'm going to, I'm going after all the people that have bothered me in one way or
Marley Dickinson (30:21.08)
Yeah, what do you think it's gone too far like do you think or do think there should be like an influencer division at that these bigger races
Josh (30:30.562)
That's a good, I wouldn't, I was going to say, I don't think it's gone too far. Cause I love, I mean, I love to consume it. I mean, I think good content at a race is really inspiring to me, but to say, yeah, if there's 50,000 people running it you've got these different waves and you've in, in whoever's like on logistics can, can have an imagination for just letting influencers have their section of the course, like to them. So I don't know exactly how they would think about it. That's brilliant. Let them get content all that, let them help each other with content, you know,
Pass one camera off to another. I think that's the way to do it. Cause I still want to see the New York marathon or I still want to see Western States. I want to see all of these awesome things, but, but those who are in it, it ruins it for them. So let's say Western States, just cause I know those numbers better. You're going to ruin it for like a hundred people. If you're getting content on that, so you want to ruin it for a hundred people out of 300. That's, know, a third of the race. So what if we can carve out something for you?
Marley Dickinson (31:11.177)
you
Josh (31:27.244)
to make sure you get the best possible content without ruining a single other person's race. So that's on the logistics, you know, on the RD of the race. But if you could do that in New York, absolutely. Then I think the content also gets better because you have a little bit more room, elbow room.
Marley Dickinson (31:40.767)
sure. For sure. I think it's good for both sides, right? I mean, they're able to be flexible and the influencers are able to be flexible and develop content that they want to create. And then, you from the race side, the race gets, again, like free marketing from these people with large followings, right? So, yeah, I think having an influencer, yeah, I think having the influence division at bigger races,
Josh (31:52.054)
Yeah.
Josh (31:55.914)
Absolutely.
Yes.
Great idea.
Marley Dickinson (32:06.917)
you know, definitely the six majors or, you know, Western States, UTMB, at bigger races is, is not a bad idea. Even if you're going to keep it like 50 to a hundred people and you just have them apply to it. Like, it's like a lottery, you know, and be like, okay, well, you set standards. I have to have 50,000 followers have to have, you know, whatever a certain time to get in. think it's, yeah, like you said, I think it's genius. you're able to.
Josh (32:19.851)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Josh (32:28.876)
Man.
Josh (32:34.23)
Think of the first race that does that, the amount of publicity, the first race that does that. And maybe it gets a hundred, maybe it doesn't get the match choice, but it gets this really sweet middle of people who are like really honored by this and really stoked on it. That publicity is whoever does it first is going to probably make a killing.
Marley Dickinson (32:51.617)
For sure, you send them off 20, 30 minutes before the elites and elites will catch them by probably 5K. But they'll be taking selfies as the elites pass by. But yeah, no, don't think it's bad idea. And again, if you keep the numbers small, I think it's totally manageable and it can make the process where they're able to shoot the content they want to shoot without interrupting other people's races.
Josh (32:55.798)
Yeah.
Josh (32:59.935)
Yeah, which would be a blast as well. Yeah, yeah.
Josh (33:13.1)
Very cool.
Josh (33:20.192)
Yeah. Yeah. If there's ever a board for that, I'd jump on that board because I think I'd want to, I'd want to advocate for that. Everybody wins.
Marley Dickinson (33:24.494)
For sure, for sure.
Josh (33:29.826)
Speaking of everybody winning at, well, maybe that was a bad segue. Two, what does this number mean to you? Two hours, nine minutes, and 56 seconds.
Marley Dickinson (33:33.782)
Ha
Marley Dickinson (33:41.663)
mean, you say the time, I just think of like the two-time barrier for men, you know, and how like astronomical, like a man running under that mark is. I mean, in Canada here, we've only had four marathoners break two-time in history. Four Canadian men breaking two-time in history. I mean, Cam Levin is our national record holder with the 205.36, which is the North American record. you know, only four men have gone under the two-time, even in the U.S. like two-time is such a
Josh (33:44.67)
Yeah, yeah.
Josh (33:56.107)
Men.
Josh (34:03.072)
Yep.
Marley Dickinson (34:11.349)
big barrier for men and it separates, you know. Yeah, he got to the 206, I believe. Yeah. Yeah, so.
Josh (34:15.285)
Did Galen Rupp ever get below 210?
That's what I thought, yeah, I like Galen. Okay. But 209.56.
Marley Dickinson (34:25.809)
is insane. It's almost hard to understand when it comes down to it. I I watched the race. I thought, you know, I've seen and watched Ruth Chapin get a tracie in the past and I know she's obviously notorious for, she's notorious for the positive split. Like she goes out, you know, balls to the wall and then will like blow up in the second half and
Josh (34:32.854)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (34:37.356)
Mm-hmm.
Marley Dickinson (34:53.542)
split the second half time, 10 minutes, eight minutes faster than my first half. But I was thinking that in Chicago, it's like, there's no way she's going to be able to hold this. And if she's going able to hold this, she's going to run something absolutely stupid. And that's what it was. And I don't know. I think it is good and bad to come of it. I think the bad is probably the uncertainty of it.
Josh (35:06.124)
Yeah.
Josh (35:19.81)
Hmm.
Marley Dickinson (35:23.329)
And I think in terms of like, it's always good to see, you know, women pushing other women to faster times. But I think in this situation, my opinion is, has always been that like. The pay, the pacing was a little overwhelming to me where, know, the, two, three male pacers delivered her pretty much from the first K to 42 kilometers. So she only ran the final two, 200 meters alone. So in that sense, where, and.
They had pretty much like the flying V going that they had for Eliud Kipchoge's Ineos 159 project. So it was again, sort of like an optimal thing. But I was trying to compare it to like men races. obviously Ineos was the only situation where a marathoner has had a constant pager for the entire race. And I know it's different in women's
Josh (35:57.454)
really?
Josh (36:01.718)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (36:21.581)
marathons because you know, there are men that can run 209 and there's, there's where, but like delivering someone from the start to the finish is just like, it just ruined the enjoyment for me. and the sensational kind of aspect of, of 209. and I know it's happened with Paul Radcliffe when she ran 215 and happened with Tink's Decephal when she ran 211 52, I think. so, but I think, I don't know, there should be a rule out there that
Josh (36:24.706)
Yeah.
Josh (36:32.673)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (36:51.545)
You know, patients have to drop at 40 K or have to drop after the 35 K mark to actually just make a race some racing aspect of it. cause I, I, I'd like to believe that, you know, race chapangetta is just not dirty and she was completely clean. but it's, it's, I don't know. It's what's makes it not enjoyable is seeing again, sort of being her being hand delivered to that mark. know she still has to run the times and,
Josh (36:55.063)
Yeah.
Josh (37:00.012)
Yeah.
Josh (37:20.149)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (37:21.65)
But yeah, I don't know, it's very difficult. I've talked to a few other elite women marathoners about this and they've been kind of standoffish on the pacing thing. Cause again, there's been situations where they've used pacers to either hit Olympic standards, national records or yada, yada, yada. But yeah, I don't know. I think the good to come of it is,
Josh (37:29.57)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (37:42.594)
Mmm.
Marley Dickinson (37:50.107)
women pushing women the faster times. And I think, you know, it'll create a lot of brands and other athletes that push themselves harder. And we'll see, you know, 214, 215 just become like, you know, the regular in the park time over the next four five years in the women's standards. And even see like a lot of women break 220 that haven't broke 220 before.
Josh (37:52.577)
Yeah.
Josh (38:08.768)
Yeah. That's crazy.
Marley Dickinson (38:18.183)
Like 220, well, we've become to do 210 for men, right? Where you just see so many people breaking that mark. But yeah, I don't know. What did you think when you saw it?
Josh (38:21.47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (38:29.312)
You know, I'm learning some stuff here from you, this, the, the pacing thing. So I see it just think, my goodness, you know, in everything, this is, you know, more my world of trail, just seeing records getting obliterated. Like how, how do records continue to get like so markedly, you know, destroyed. so, you know, I'm seeing this and just thinking, I mean, my goodness, at what point do we max out on breaking records? And especially in trail, as we see these
great road athletes who still have road career left in their legs are coming to trail and just crushing course records, obliterating course records, that we continue to still be able to do it. That's my first thought. And then to see this sub 210 is inspiring or like, mean, mind blowing. It's beyond inspiring. That doesn't, that's not inspiring for me, actually. It's just mind blowing. It's like, it's like true fandom. I don't believe I can go play soccer like Messi.
When I watch him play, I just, I'm in awe of it. I love to watch it so that she was able to do it is incredible. But the pacer thing from start to finish in the middle. mean, I know like the any of us project that was optimized built for that. Right. So she was, she, she was going for a course record in a, in a race and had people trying to get her the course record in the middle of a normal race when, you know, thousands of other people are running it. Is that.
Marley Dickinson (39:22.943)
if
Josh (39:52.14)
Was that right?
Marley Dickinson (39:54.23)
Yeah, I mean obviously like, you know, she's it's a mass start to toggle so everyone starts at once but yeah, she had she had three male pacers that were pacing her towards the world record and that was the objective of it was to bring her through halfway in 65 and and You know have her have her under 211 52 But yeah, but the thing is to like I I know again, like I said, I know what happened with Paul Radcliffe. I know what happened with
Josh (39:59.136)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (40:23.761)
Tink's Sefa, I know it happened. Obviously a few weeks ago it through Chappagettich. But you know, I think on the men's side of things, know, when Calvin Kipton ran two hours and 35 minutes in Chicago, he had a pacer up to 21k. And the guy, well, I know at that pace, it's a little bit more difficult, you know, because someone can't, yeah, someone can't run you, you know, completely all the way. Someone can't run.
Josh (40:23.777)
Yeah.
Josh (40:40.886)
Mm, okay.
Marley Dickinson (40:51.209)
42 kilometers on the men's side. And like, even a men's race as well. Like, you know, at most elite marathons, the paces will drop out because the pace becomes too much for them. But like, let's say, you know, instead a new pacer just came in. So this guy was going to be like, well, I'm just going to drop out at halfway. And then we, okay, well, let's just have another guy sub in at halfway. I see that as the same thing as what happened in Chicago with Ruth Jeffrey Chep and Geddes's record, where you have...
Josh (41:01.502)
Yep.
Marley Dickinson (41:18.737)
someone running the entire race in front of her, pacing her, pushing the effort, like you said, taking the wind, doing this, doing that, which you just don't see on the men's side of things. So I think, again, making a rule around it or, but like you said before, like people want to see records, people want to see fast times and how far does like, how far can that get? And I don't know, I always think
Josh (41:24.927)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (41:39.307)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (41:47.371)
track and field or trail running or any sort of sport. It's all about the race itself. something I loved a few years ago was, was the showdown between Matthew Blanchard and Killian Jornet at UTMB. It came down to the final few, like final few kilometers and like descents. And these two men were like challenging each other, surging past one another, like going in aid stations, just like completely like wrapping things up. And it was just like, I was on the edge of my seat. And that's like,
Josh (41:51.98)
Yeah.
Josh (41:58.11)
Yes, yes, I love that one. Yes. Yep.
Josh (42:10.998)
Yep.
Josh (42:15.339)
Yes.
Marley Dickinson (42:16.234)
That's like what you want to see. even in the, even the races this past weekend in New York city, you know, you saw both men's and women's races that came down to the final mile. And I mean, that's, that's what, that's what excites a lot of people is seeing, you know, these, these crazy finishes or memorable finishes where you have two athletes just dueling back and forth on their own. And I think when you introduce Pacers and have them, especially in the women's field where Pacers, there's no limit to where the Pacers can go or not.
Josh (42:18.415)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Josh (42:25.344)
Hmm
Josh (42:33.003)
Yeah.
Josh (42:36.544)
Yes.
Marley Dickinson (42:46.826)
It takes out the competitive side of things.
Josh (42:51.489)
Hmm.
Marley Dickinson (42:52.658)
So you don't get those extraordinary race finishes. if there was a rule saying, OK, well, no paces can go past 30k, it still creates that racing aspect. says, OK, if I was an athlete saying, OK, well, maybe I'm not in the same shape as Ruchap and Geddesh, but I'd like to see if I could go through 30k with her and see how I feel and if I could hang on and outrace her through the past 10k.
Josh (42:56.822)
Yeah.
Josh (43:19.303)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (43:21.258)
At least there's an opportunity to do that, where if you have a pacer taking them all the way, then there's no racing aspect to it.
Josh (43:24.034)
Hmm.
Josh (43:30.239)
Yeah. Yeah. It makes me two races come to mind. One is, I want to see the race so that the, the, women's marathon, in Paris this year, that finish like that, that finishes, I'd pay good money to see that finish, you know, for that finish, the way that it happened and, and everything. And then the other race that this makes me think of is a coca-dona this year. I don't know if you watched it, the two 50, 250 mile in Arizona, but Jeff Browning was winning the entire time.
And coverage is spotty and it's pixelated and you don't necessarily know who that is. And they're like, okay, here comes Jeff Browning. He's on the, he's on the final stretch. And it wasn't Jeff Browning that the, was following for him for a minute overhead. And it was, and I can't believe I'm forgetting who won coca-dona, but Jeff was ahead most of the time, you know, 48 or 52 years old, but that race, that race to me. So I like the, I like Ellie, you know,
Going for the record. That's fun. 159. That's fun. But in the end, I don't care if he gets to 18 if it's like two people like four people battling it out to the finish line. That's what I love.
Marley Dickinson (44:43.251)
Yeah, no, mean, that's what racing's always been. And that's what I think excites people. Like you said, the Paris Women's Marathon finish, where you have four people, four athletes, down, coming around lovillanies to the Sen, the Sen finish, and just having them sprint and two athletes going head to head. mean, it's what makes...
Josh (44:53.396)
I loved that. So good.
Josh (45:05.45)
Yeah. Yeah. Ugh.
Marley Dickinson (45:10.729)
Everyone stand up on their seats. the moments that.
Josh (45:12.576)
Yep. And I don't know the time. I don't know their finishing time and it didn't matter. All I can remember is like, you know, get her getting around and that final kick. So that's cool.
Marley Dickinson (45:19.501)
Yeah. But, you know, it's, and I also, you know, love to see dominance as well. Like, again, in the sense of what Kelvin Kiptum did in Chicago last year, or, you know, the way that Tamrat Tola ran away from the competition in Paris. So like dominance in that sense, where you see some athlete that is just superior to everyone else, drop them off and, and do their own thing. But, you know, it's
Josh (45:38.027)
Mmm.
Josh (45:46.432)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (45:47.571)
It takes a little bit away from it if there's a pacer, because there's no strategy to it. It's just like, okay, well, this person's fit. Cool. There's no execution of being like, okay, well, they made that crazy move. Tim Rattoll made the move on that massive hill. don't know what it's called in Coming off out of Versailles, climbing back that hill, back into Paris. Yeah. Yeah. And he made the move on the hill and just never looked back. It was his title to win.
Josh (45:57.45)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (46:03.114)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Josh (46:08.02)
Out of Versailles. Crazy Hill for a marathon. Yep.
Josh (46:16.172)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (46:17.293)
And that was like epic to see because you're like, well, you remember those moments. But there's like, there's no part, maybe I'm lying to myself with this, but like no part of Chep and Geddes just raced. It was like, wow. I can't believe she made that move or did that. know, it's just like, obviously the whole thing is impressive to run that time. And, and it's extraordinary to see, like, I think she was like ninth overall or something like that, even in with everything considered. but.
Josh (46:21.492)
Yeah.
Josh (46:26.25)
Hahaha
Josh (46:30.619)
Mm. Right. Absolutely. Yep.
Yep.
Josh (46:43.51)
Wow. Wow.
Marley Dickinson (46:47.063)
Yeah, I don't know. There needs to be more racing. The sport is founded on racing and I think I'm a huge proponent on that.
Josh (46:51.01)
Totally. Yeah, that's why it's. And that to me, you know, my final thought, that's why it's weird that she had the V formation and in that in a race, because that feels like a exhibition rather than the race, so.
Marley Dickinson (47:08.866)
Yeah. But again, like that's, are the rules, right? Like you have to, for it to count as a world record, it has to be at a sanctioned race. So, you know, I don't know, I don't know what was going on with her coach or her team of what was organized behind the scenes of what the project was. but I assume it was just like, okay, well let's create this optimal pacing strategy for Ruth where, you know, she can challenge the world record.
Josh (47:16.32)
Yeah.
Got it.
Josh (47:23.104)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (47:34.369)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (47:38.198)
And like I said before, it's been that way in the past few. Chepa Gajd have more paces than Paul Radcliffe when she ran 215. And I think she had one more pace than Aceph used in Berlin last year. So yeah, I don't know. It's extraordinary to see. I think we'll probably hear a little bit more about the record as it gets ratified in coming months.
Josh (47:50.485)
Uh-huh.
Josh (47:54.626)
Hmm.
Josh (48:03.989)
Yeah.
Marley Dickinson (48:07.704)
Definitely, we're gonna see some crazy women's marathon times coming in next year, I think.
Josh (48:15.008)
man, I'm stoked. Well, hey, we've got sprint two, season two coming out. Would you come back after it's out and let's recap it because I'm particularly pumped on it as many people are, but will you join me again and let's talk about it.
Marley Dickinson (48:31.248)
for sure man, yeah, I'm super stoked. One of my favorite athletes right now is Lezlily Tabogo, the 200 meter gold medals from Botswana. He is an awesome personality and he's like the nicest guy in the world. He's come from like, know, humble beginnings and I'm excited just to see his story be told around the world to, you know, not only...
Josh (48:38.357)
Okay.
Josh (48:41.931)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Really.
Marley Dickinson (48:58.403)
the world and track and field audience, but the people that may not follow the sport and might've just seen him race for the first time in Paris and beat an athlete like Noah Lyles. But there's so many cool, exciting athletes coming to this season sprint. Julian Alfred, he's from St. Lucia. She won St. Lucia's first gold medal this summer in Paris in Olympic history. So it's gonna be really, really exciting. I honestly, I'm counting down the days at this point.
Josh (49:05.514)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (49:13.964)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Josh (49:22.986)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, my overarching question. mean, I, I obsess over track and field and, especially at the Olympics. And when Noah lost the 200, my, and my, even my 11 year old son caught it when they said that he had COVID. It was if he won, would we have known about COVID? You know, was that convenient that he had COVID? I'm not saying he didn't have COVID, but it's a fun thing to think about. And I'm excited to see how this documentary presents it. Cause I mean, season one was just.
so well.
Marley Dickinson (49:59.153)
Yeah, well, season two, again, with the stakes of the Olympic Games and everything that we've seen unfold, it's going to be a loaded one. Even the men's 100. I mean, was like one of the tightest finishes they've seen in Olympic history, where eight men were within a tenth of a second of one another at the finish. So it's going to be awesome. We're going to see the Noah Lyles theatrics. And he does play.
Josh (50:03.489)
Yeah.
Josh (50:17.82)
so good. So good. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Marley Dickinson (50:28.9)
I've been on the side, think Noah's great for the sport. think, you know, he loves the media, he owns it, he puts on a show every time he touches the track. And I think what he's done at Sprint too is he's embraced the villain role and he wants to be seen as that. yeah, it's gonna be awesome.
Josh (50:32.768)
Yep.
Josh (50:38.593)
Yep.
Josh (50:45.281)
Yeah? Yeah.
Alright, last question. Just for scale and for my audience who doesn't know a whole whole lot about it. What? How big is Lyle's contract? Like what are we talking to see? Is he seven figures? What's what's what's a brand contract like for a track athlete of his notoriety?
Marley Dickinson (51:06.948)
Yeah, I mean, could, I could let you in on a little bit of numbers. so if you're, if you're an Olympic sprint medalist, generally you're making, sort of in the middle of seven figures and eight figures. So you're, you're probably making around sort of three to 5 million a year. especially if you're an Olympic gold medalist on the track. I think, I think, yeah. So I think in Lyle's level, with how big.
Josh (51:21.686)
Okay.
Josh (51:27.17)
Gosh.
Whoa.
Josh (51:33.951)
you
Marley Dickinson (51:36.21)
how big of an athlete he's become and his audience and reach. it's, it's probably around that. again, I don't know exact numbers on the contract. but yeah, there's, there's, there is a few, there's, there's probably about, you know, you can probably count on one hand, or maybe to the athletes that have sort of numbers around that. but most, most of the other Olympic athletes are, are definitely under seven.
Josh (51:39.957)
Yeah.
Josh (51:46.593)
for.
Sure.
Marley Dickinson (52:06.225)
Seven figures.
Josh (52:06.496)
Yeah, gosh. Well, I could talk about this all day. I'm excited for that for season two. I'm interested to still see how the Camille story develops, if it develops more or as it develops more. And then this Russian plane thing, when they come back into society, I'll be looking for, know, their, hopefully there's some follow up what to see simply how they respond to the world now knowing what they're doing and what they're doing to their customers.
Marley Dickinson (52:09.071)
Hehehehe
Marley Dickinson (52:33.763)
Yeah, no, for sure. think as we as they inch towards the world marathon challenge, should be, there definitely should be some more, some more news coming out around that. again, Josh, I appreciate you, you have me on the show. It's always a pleasure.
Josh (52:41.505)
Yeah.
Josh (52:46.4)
Yeah, man, it's great. Let's do it again. All right, see you.
Marley Dickinson (52:48.817)
That's dead.
