Ep102 • Breaking Down DNF Culture
This podcast episode dives deep into the controversial culture surrounding DNFs (Did Not Finish) in ultra running, with hosts Brian and Josh discussing the social constructs and emotional weight attached to these outcomes.
Brian passionately argues that runners should be able to celebrate their efforts, regardless of whether they complete a race, pointing out the absurdity of labeling a significant distance as a failure.
The conversation expands to explore the pressures and expectations placed on amateur runners compared to elite athletes, highlighting the different motivations and mentalities in play.
Additionally, the hosts reflect on the implications of race metrics and how the ultra running community could evolve to better recognize the achievements of those who may not finish but still push their limits. With a mix of humor and serious reflection, the episode encourages listeners to reconsider how they perceive and react to DNFs in the sport.
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Devil's Gulch 100 miler, 50 miler, 13.1 miles. Wenatchee, WA - July 13, 2025
Salt Lake Footshills Trail Races. Salt Lake City, UT - May 31, 2025
VKTRY Insoles - I wear these every run, 20% off.
PATH Projects - My favorite running shorts, Borderlands10 for 10% off.
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Takeaways:
The DNF culture in ultra running creates unnecessary stigma around not finishing races.
Runners invest significant time and effort into training, making DNFs feel like failures.
There should be alternative metrics for race completion rather than just DNF statuses.
Celebrating accomplishments in running, even if they don't result in a finish, is important.
The podcast discusses how elite runners view DNFs differently than amateur runners.
There is a need for a cultural shift in how we perceive and discuss DNFs.
Josh (00:01.166)
All right. Back with Wolf runner on another bad runners take again, the concept here is I called a bad runners take because you know, in proper self deprecation, say I'm a bad runner. but really the reality was a play on words here to say that these might be bad takes, but, as is necessary in most climates, but especially climate, you know, right now of you got to say this stuff out loud. It's super important to say this stuff out loud and, and trail it's nice.
because there's a lot of benefit of the doubt going around. So we can get controversial here and talk about trail stuff or have opposing opinions or, you know, offer just some bad takes, but we won't know they're bad until we say them out loud because they also might be good. And that's the risk that we're, we're willing to take before we go any further. Welcome. Glad you're here, How's your morning? I don't know if people know this. You get up at 5 a.m. To record for me. It's it's one. I have a nice morning.
Wolfie (00:49.62)
Absolutely. This will be a fun one. It's good.
Wolfie (00:57.463)
Yeah.
Josh (00:59.312)
You haven't done much but roll out of bed yet, right?
Wolfie (01:01.898)
Yeah, 430, you know, the alarm goes off. We get the lights fired up. It's getting colder in the morning out here. So that's good.
Josh (01:06.734)
What is cold for Arizona?
Wolfie (01:12.834)
Well this morning it was like 39 Fahrenheit.
Josh (01:17.46)
that's legit. That's legitimately cold. I was expecting you to say like 60.
Wolfie (01:20.258)
Yeah, and you figure, no, no, and then you figure, you know, Javelina was just two weeks ago and it was a hundred. So it's like, yeah, I mean, it doesn't, we don't just gracefully go into cold temperature. It's an ice bath. Yeah.
Josh (01:32.856)
Huh, okay. Okay, so out there in the desert, you're get those lows, low lows. What's your high today?
Wolfie (01:41.794)
It'll be like 63.
Josh (01:46.222)
That's kind of what it is in Paris, but it's cloudy. But I mean, wildly runnable weather, not complaining. Miss that sunshine, that hot sun. I love those photos that you post of that hot sun. You run like a long, like a waterway, a causeway. Where are you running when I see those photos?
Wolfie (02:02.25)
Yeah, it's a canal. So yeah, it's a waterway. It's crushed gravel, uninterrupted traffic lights. Don't have to deal with that. then I'm close enough to kind of the rural boundaries of the city. once I get about three miles onto the canal, then I'm just out in the desert running along the waterway.
Josh (02:18.574)
Yeah. All right. And you're a lone wolf runner. You're a lone wolf runner. Yeah. You ever encounter, are you seeing big game out there? Is it just snakes? What are you encountering in the Phoenix desert or in the Arizona?
Wolfie (02:23.116)
What's that?
Absolutely. Yeah. Just.
Wolfie (02:34.282)
Yeah, no, just small stuff. I mean, we get, get javelina into the city every now and then. So you'll see those guys running around, lots of coyotes, you know, they're well fed out here with all the, suburban moms that have chickens. So they're pretty nice looking coyotes. They're, they, usually don't bother you cause they're so well fed. So yeah, that's, that's the pack I run with basically are the coyotes out here.
Josh (02:56.044)
Yeah.
They eat the chickens and teach little kids important lessons about the circle of life. Yeah. Okay. You sent this to me and I think it's a really great conversation, a really interesting conversation because I've lived it. So I'll intro it and you, and you put some, put some flesh around what you were thinking, but I mean, you, you posed it as, what do I think about in the middle of a, let's say it's easier, easiest to concept in a hundred mile.
Wolfie (03:05.567)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Josh (03:28.142)
Fill in the blank on whatever distance this works down to the 10 K. If you're a hundred miler, but that race also offers a hundred K. What do you think about when they offer you a mid race downgrade to a shorter distance? So you can make the decision in the race and downgrade. Am I, am I capturing the essence of the question?
Wolfie (03:51.05)
Yeah, exactly. Just kind of like the DNF culture that surrounds the ultra trail running world. So I didn't know that this was a thing. I didn't know that there were races that advertised this option. Arabaipa has, you know, a zero, you know, drop down type of policy. So, you know, where I run and race, it's, it's not on my radar. So it just got me thinking, you know, because
And this is more, we're going to take both sides of the coin, right? The amateur impact and the elite impact. Cause I think it's two radically different concepts and how I think about it. You know, but this, this DNF thing, right? Like we're all, you know, amateur hobbyists who have full-time jobs, right? We've got spouses, we've got families, we've got kids that we're juggling and yet we're still pouring in every ounce of energy and free time into the sport.
You know, we're doing it for, you know, 15 weeks training blocks and, beyond, right. We're stacking training blocks year over year. And it's like, you invest all of this, right. Energy and effort and time, not, not, not even considering the money that you invest into the race. And a lot of people are doing it for healthy reasons, mentally, physically, addiction avoidance, everything, right. And you go to this race. And for one reason or another, hundred miles are freaking hard, right. So you end up not being able to get it done.
What do you get? You get a DNF, right? A DNF. It's a failure. And it seems kind of asinine to me that running 50 miles is recorded on some arbitrary website like UltraSignUp as a did not finish. And then you've got to go in and create, it cascades this whole entire culture of like, now you've got to do your DNF post and you got to talk about how it's not about the finish, it's about the journey.
Josh (05:25.73)
You
Wolfie (05:49.762)
and that we're all better because of what we did and showing up at the start line is, you know, the battle and, you know, it creates this whole lexicon. I think that's just kind of a social construct. If we just allowed us to celebrate what we actually fucking did, like it kind of ruffled me up a little bit. And this morning I'm already fired up again thinking about this stupid DNF culture that we self-impose on each other.
Josh (05:57.102)
Yeah.
Josh (06:09.901)
Yeah.
Josh (06:13.814)
Yeah, man, I, okay, I'll say this. I largely dislike ya boy Scott Jurich's posts. Okay, that's my opening position. I think he's talent for days in his ability to exegete the trail running culture. So hear that as well. Massively impressed. But what he has made fun of really well, and I use,
sophisticated word like exegete because I think the way that he's memeing is exposing silliness within the culture and and allows people to laugh so I'm saying all those things are important so I also want you to hear I like him he makes fun of the DNF post pretty well like the you know we're all in this for these other reasons and I've lived in that world and I get it I mean
On some levels, gotta make sense of it. You gotta make sense of the world somehow. You've gotta have some sort of like North Star guiding principle. If I failed at something, how do I make this not a waste? How do I need to look at this? I love all that. I love thinking through that. I love the headiness of that.
But you know, then you see, so Corinne Malcolm posts her DNF tale and everybody. So what does it say about the culture that they have to post their DNF thing? You know what I mean? It feels like surely it's authentic and I'm sure they've, they've learned these lessons that they put in there, but does anybody just say, well, DNFed or does anybody just not even talk about it? know, Jim's always going to bring up his story of why he didn't finish.
shit and Chamonix and so you get, you know, I got Karen, everybody not picking on Karen, just she, she was the one that came to mind most recently. Hayden does it. These like beasts of the trail, like these killers, amazing competitors. And then they do their, their DNF post. Why do you think they, you think they think they have to do it?
Wolfie (08:20.684)
I don't think they have to do anything, But I think, yeah, I mean, think a lot of people who are intro running are philosophical, right? We spend a lot of time by ourselves and in our own heads. And so it would make sense that we would want to archive that experience. I think we're communal, so we want to share it with others and hope to inspire others through that story.
Josh (08:30.871)
Absolutely.
Josh (08:46.572)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wolfie (08:48.77)
you know, encourage others or help others. Right. So I don't, don't have to know, but I think it's a good opportunity to connect with people when you do. But again, like I'm getting, we're getting sidetracked because like the core of this is like the amateur runner, not the professionals, the professionals will unpack a second here, but like you and I, like, you know, the average Joe, like you sign up for a hundred mile there and you get to mile 75 and your day's over.
and you did not finish. where did this, where did it really come from? Like in no other sport, like I go have a bad round of golf, I shoot like 10 strokes worse than I wanted to. I still have a score. It's not, hey, did not finish. I still have something accomplished, you know, within the sport.
Josh (09:32.269)
Yeah.
Josh (09:35.736)
I see.
Yeah.
Wolfie (09:44.138)
Why are we allowing the sport to just be this like such a binary thing? Like where it's like you signed up for a hundred mile or you ran 60, you are did not, you are a DNF, right? Like does ultrasound need a competing site that archives things a little bit differently and kind of competes for the narrative of how the sport works?
Josh (09:48.245)
Mmm.
Josh (09:54.467)
Yeah.
Josh (09:59.768)
interesting.
Okay, I'm tracking with you, but I don't know. I'm not tracking in so far as I have some creativity to support you, so help me. What could be another metric if you made it 60 and 100 miles? What's another way of thinking about that? What shows up?
Wolfie (10:14.307)
Yeah, whatever the next distance is that the race would have offered. Like, don't think there's, I mean, there might be, I mean, even if they don't offer it, like, let's say it's a hundred mile to the right and they don't offer the hundred K, but you've gone 61.2 miles or greater than at, or the race would just designate it beforehand at this aid station. Once you eclipse this aid station, you have successfully finished the hundred K. If you drop somewhere later on,
Josh (10:19.118)
Mmm.
Josh (10:38.566)
Mmm.
Wolfie (10:43.264)
You'll be considered a dropped a hundred mile runner who completed a hundred K. If you drop at this aid station, you are a 50 mile complete or 50, know, 50 K, whatever. Like we can get into the details there, but somehow, you know, set this up, you know, it's not, it's not about, it's not about participation awards. The guy's actually running 60 miles. So it's not some sort of like sentimental, like
Josh (10:59.276)
Hmm. my God.
Wolfie (11:10.076)
Soppy Hallmark card that you're getting for completing 5k out of the 100k. I'm not going down that path I'm not soft in that nature, but like It just kills me like we talk about how uplifting this sport should be and then you just get stamped with like a red DNF mark at 60 miles. Yeah
Josh (11:12.376)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (11:26.35)
Scarlet letter. I okay now I'm with you and I love this and here's where my mind immediately goes is I think there is some utility to say what did you start out to do that day and did you do it? But should you not so I don't know I see it as two columns. But yeah, I mean. So my my working example of this and my many DNF's at the 100 mile distance 8 of 10 DNF's at the 100 mile distance. I ran.
Let's see one year I ran Zion five times. Both of my finishes read Zion three DNFs there, but one year I ran it and I came in. I don't remember my mask. I'd be a little bit off. I was two miles. There's an aid station there in the Virgin desert. That there was just a sign like, you're coming in here. You're doing the hundred miler. The course route is such that if you want to downgrade to the hundred K right now, turn right two miles.
And if you want to do the a hundred mile or turn left. Well, I came into that aid station and I was, I was maxed and my, you know, number of problems, who knows if they were real. I'm probably made him up in my head. think at this point, I'm pretty convinced that all my DNFs are purely in my head. And, I quit and someone's like, no, you keep going. Just turn right. Take two miles. Take that. You can walk that in. You can, you can walk those two miles in an hour or two hours. If you want, got plenty of time. I was like, that's not what I'm here for.
I'm here for the hundred milers. I'm going to now. I'm not going to quit in two miles.
And that, that, I have no regrets, but to your point, I wonder if that, how it would change things if we knew that there were two columns because Lord knows we run on oftentimes simply. it'll show up on Strava. Would it change how we run races? If we know it's going to show up on ultra signup because everybody I talked to before I do an interview on the podcast or anything, I go to their ultra signup page and check them out. I size them up. learn about who they are. So I got to imagine the same way that Strava forces us.
Josh (13:31.232)
us to make bad decisions in our training. A change in ultra sign up metrics would do the same, but in a really fun way.
Wolfie (13:39.522)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, I mean, runners are so, you know, manic and anal about their Strava runs that they'll jog in a parking lot for 0.2 miles to get to the nearest whole mile, right? But we won't go two miles down the trail to get to the whole hundred K finish. No, just, just DNF here, right? So yeah, maybe if somehow Strava linked into ultra sign up. So it would show you that in that DNF, you went 60 miles.
Josh (13:40.93)
That's good.
Wolfie (14:07.596)
Cause not every DNF's the same, right? You're looking at some dude's ultra sign up and it says DNF and it says 80 miles. You're like, well, that dude went 80 miles into his DNF journey. The other guy pulled the plug at mile 31. you know, not, not all DNFs are created the same, but.
Josh (14:10.158)
Totally.
Josh (14:23.598)
Gosh, good point for someone who's DNF'd 100 so many times and tries to slay that beast and I hope to do it 20 more times to try. Great point. I would love to know that, to see that. Yeah, at Bryce one year it was 36 miles, but every other one has been north of 50. Bryce another year was mile 51, but Zion has been a DNF at 78, 60, and 50. That is, I mean, 36 versus DNF at 78.
Wolfie (14:48.759)
Right.
Josh (14:53.464)
That's just enjoyable, regardless of its utility, that's enjoyable data to be able to call up on my Ultra Sign Up page itself to not have to drill down. That's a really great idea.
Wolfie (15:05.878)
Right. So now.
Josh (15:08.066)
I'm sending this podcast to the owners of Ultra Sign Up, David and Jay. I'm gonna make them listen.
Wolfie (15:12.288)
Right. Yeah. Just have Strava, know, yeah. Get a partnership with Strava and just have the activity that the runner, the, this is the runner's feed from Strava link into Ultra Sign Up. And there you go.
Josh (15:22.582)
Yeah, that's fun. Okay, then what do you, no, you go ahead, go ahead.
Wolfie (15:26.082)
But yeah, now for the elite. Yeah, yeah. So the elites, right? So that's, I think that's a whole different concept because elites go into races with much different intentions than most all of us do. Right? Like maybe once I've gone into a 50 K race where I said, I'm going out at, you know, a suicide pace and I'm okay DNFing this one if it doesn't come together. And I DNFed it, right? So like, that was the time where I gave myself the freedom to do that.
Josh (15:51.277)
Mm-hmm.
Wolfie (15:55.498)
Right. Go out and race it like a 5k and see what happens just out of curiosity sake. Right. And that's basically the professional life of how they race. Like every time you're running that with that mindset. So I get their DNF, have injury avoidance today. They've got a livelihood to make off of it. It's not just the hobby, but at the same time, I have to wonder too, like what, what's, what kind of scar tissue does the DNF have on a elite runner? Because we're starting to see some.
Josh (15:59.982)
That's awesome.
Josh (16:04.172)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (16:12.93)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (16:23.329)
Mmm.
Wolfie (16:24.746)
elite runners who are collecting DNFs now to where almost, you know, they go a full calendar year with nothing but DNFs. And that's, that's crazy.
Josh (16:40.14)
that I mean, the psychology of that. I mean, no doubt there's a there's a something in depth to explore in the psychology. My mind immediately goes to as a fan because they race so rarely. I mean, I want to see them go all out. I love that go out like a 5k at a hundred mile or whatever. But I if they if they burn up, burn out, I want them to quit. I want them to DNF because as hard as it is to wait so long between races.
Wolfie (16:42.262)
Yeah.
Josh (17:10.254)
And being a Jim Walmsley fan, you know, I, I went to Western States in 2019. I wanted to see him get the win. And it was the year that he got like 14 on something, 1409, 1404, Jared Hayes and got 1423. I loved that day. If I had been at UTMB this year when Jim Walmsley DNFs or previous years when he DNFs, I'd be really disappointed because, but I'm only disappointed because I wanted to see him win that day.
The year that Jim hung in and got fourth, going up that hill with the cattle and all that sort of stuff. I mean, he knows his body has, and he's surrounded by people that are supportive and helpful. I don't care about your fourth place. Finish, save what you got. Don't hurt yourself. Come back to the next race and win it. That's what I'm here for. And that's what you get paid for. Back to the discussion about Courtney. We have this perception that because it's outdoor and outdoor sports that everyone's just out doing work on their soul.
Now I am and I'm paying for it. have a day job, but these people out there are working. So I want to see you out there winning. And if you're not going to win DNF, just fold it, save everything you have. Don't hurt yourself. If you, get it. Jim finished UTMB because he wanted to, he needed to close the loop. There's a psychology to that. So I celebrate that he made the right choice. That's not what I'm questioning, but I'm there to see my favorite person win. If you're not going to win, just quit, save it.
Wolfie (18:32.93)
Yeah, yeah. It's just crazy. know, even like something like cycling, you watch the Tour de France and these like, you know, these riders who, you know, are supposed to contend for the, you know, the victory and, know, by early on in the tour, they're kind of already out of it, right? But like, they're still going to finish. Like they finished the stages. They still, you know, they still finish the tour, right? They still get something out of it that like, I just can't imagine. Like it's...
Josh (18:44.375)
Mmm.
Josh (18:53.262)
That is really good comparison. Yeah. Yeah.
Wolfie (19:00.418)
it's really underappreciated how hard it's gotta be to be a professional ultra runner, specifically like the a hundred mile distance. you know, you go out and have a bad marathon, you're still finishing the marathon. Maybe you're just five to 10 minutes slower than, you know, than what you wanted as an elite runner. Like you still finished. Like it's wild.
Josh (19:08.78)
Yeah.
Josh (19:19.651)
Yeah.
Is there another sport where people just don't finish?
Wolfie (19:27.926)
I don't know, maybe like mountaineering, right? Like maybe you want to go summit Everest or some other sort of like, you know, this monumental peak and you can't, you just don't do it because usually it's weather, you know, permitting not so much physical, but I can't think of anything else that you build up for and then you go and attempt it and it's just some zero game. It's all or nothing.
Josh (19:28.364)
This is really funny.
Okay, yeah.
Josh (19:40.984)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Josh (19:51.798)
Yeah, really, really interesting to think about it on that level. mean, if I am looking at, yeah, you think about other sport, NASCAR, whatever you finish, it was not even unless you get in a major accident, it's not even in the consciousness. When the Yankees were down three games to not to none in the series, they still had to go play again because there was still a fighting chance. You know, they could come back. Red Sox did it to them and what four or something like that down three games.
Wolfie (20:06.913)
Right.
Wolfie (20:20.32)
Ready.
Josh (20:21.41)
You still show up and in that sport maybe you can come back when you're down 3-0. Yeah, but then in our sport you can just quit.
That's wild. It makes sense because it's hard. Yeah, but only I only want to give the excuse to amateurs that yeah, it's hard. Of course it is. Maybe didn't have time to try, but if you're professional that feels that's just a. It's thought provoking if nothing else.
Wolfie (20:32.972)
So.
Wolfie (20:49.078)
Right. So I don't know. think maybe we'll see the sport evolve. what this conversation is about, right? So maybe people haven't even thought about, the DNF be something that we revisit and revise within the sport at the amateur level? It just seems like you started it off with your boy Scott Jurek. Like it just seems like I ran 72 miles and all I got was this DNF post.
Josh (20:57.527)
Yeah, yeah.
Josh (21:15.242)
Right. Huh. Well, did you hear about the Russian plane? So Marley Dickinson, who had on the show, wrote the article, got the tip that Runbuck, I think that's how you say it, was taking some runners in a Russian plane, a sanctioned Russian plane, meaning
Wolfie (21:18.518)
So.
Wolfie (21:25.366)
Yeah.
Wolfie (21:36.812)
Yes.
Josh (21:44.866)
Don't if you're an American or Canadian you and or British you do not get on a Russian plane but this company like straight out of like looney tunes It took all of the Russian insignia and logos on the plane and they covered it with a sticker Trying to conceal actively trying to conceal the fact that it was this Russian aircraft in Russian company and when Marley Published the article
The plane was in the air carrying 15 people from South Africa to Antarctica to run a 24 hour race. And these people are paying $10,000 a piece, something like that for this race, the same company. They're the ones who put on the seven marathons in seven days on seven continents. And so I got marketed to for that. was like, wow, that's really interesting. How do they even handle that logistically? Well, the answer is, that you, you use a Russian airliner and you put stickers over it.
And they're making a lot of money per runner and they're putting their runners in a really dicey situation. And that is if you're an American, you're on that plane. Our government's not happy with you. What, where does your mind go on this? What? It's a bizarre thing. It's geopolitical in its nature, but, it's a running company. Like where do you go?
Wolfie (23:09.622)
I just don't think it's gonna be major news because it's just, if this was UTMB, then I would say that, this would be, you know, this would be, you know, the Gary Robbins Whistler debacle 2.0. This would be, you know, UTMB Russia gate. So, I mean, I don't think this is gonna really move anybody's...
Josh (23:19.298)
People will be waiting for this.
Josh (23:27.452)
Yeah
Wolfie (23:39.486)
I don't think anybody's gonna be really fired up about it. I think we'll all agree that basically these people are schmucks. This is clear violation. I think hopefully the affluent people who can afford this, because I think it was something like 20 some thousand dollars per person or whatever the cost was, hopefully this affluent community realizes that this is no longer a company they can trust to travel safely.
Josh (23:44.898)
Yes.
Josh (24:03.939)
Yeah.
Wolfie (24:07.648)
internationally, right? Or just do things with, you know, morals and ethics that you would expect from a business that is handling something this sophisticated.
Josh (24:18.478)
Yeah. And I just want to, because I kind of teed it up for you and you didn't swing at it. So I just want to throw it out there. $20,000 per person to run the seven marathon, seven continents, seven days, which is similar to coca-donut prices. That's your joke, not mine, but okay. I just didn't want that to be lost. That's too good. yeah. Go ahead.
Wolfie (24:37.669)
Yes. Yes. Yeah. I was going to get to it in the second round, but yeah, you got it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, yeah, I mean, just to keep harping on it, like this is where like, you know, kind of like we pick and choose the moral soapbox we want to stand on and boycott or rally around and like light the torches and get the pitchforks out and, really demonize the group. Right. Like UTMB got in trouble because they had Dacia.
as a sponsor, right? Who was in the auto industry. Here's a group that's taking a what 747 type. I mean, this is a huge passenger commercial economy jet, right? And they're filling it with 25 runners.
Josh (25:07.832)
Yeah.
Josh (25:14.72)
It's enormous, yeah.
Wolfie (25:22.858)
Right? 25 runners, right? So like this, like when you want to talk about like, you know, carbon footprint, our sport does not have a carbon footprint allowance or conscious because here are people who can afford to go to Antarctica. Right. There's, there's, and there's also, probably people who are upset and angry now that they're learning that we do ultras on Antarctica. That should be protected land. Nobody should touch foot on it. So we're traveling to a sacred land.
Josh (25:24.941)
Yeah.
Josh (25:29.805)
Right.
Wolfie (25:52.416)
by commercial airline with only like 25 passengers on a Russian branded plane. Like it seems like it should be something that really lights the fire under, you know, the activism. I don't think it will.
Josh (25:54.275)
Yeah.
Josh (26:00.504)
Yeah.
Wakes up the activist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think you're probably right. I do love this, this UTMB take and you, and you brought up Gary Robbins. Remind me of a conversation we also had offline. So I'll tee it up. and you'll be able to, to kind of build the house around it. Did you hear an interview with, was it Jason Schlarb talking about his take on the Gary Robbins UTMB debacle?
I remember you telling me and it was the first time I'd heard a take like this and I found it to be refreshing. Is that sufficient to tee it up?
Wolfie (26:40.032)
Yeah, yeah, I know where you're going with it. And again, I'm not gonna, so I'm gonna be paraphrasing and certainly if I get anything wrong or misquoted, know, just don't quote me on it. But essentially the gist of it was, is that he was able to partition out basically like the issue that he, you know, he was upset about Gary Robbins, you know, and his personal impact, but also was able to simultaneously say that, hey,
Josh (26:44.567)
Yes.
Josh (26:48.982)
Yeah.
Wolfie (27:08.544)
The Whistler UTMB event is the best and only opportunity right now to create a North American UTMB enchantment. Basically, we can't lift the start line of the elite field in the men's and women's UTMB race and place it on hard rock. We want the hard rock course to run competitively like UTMB does. That would be fascinating to see them attack a mountainous course like that.
Josh (27:19.054)
Mmm.
Josh (27:33.293)
Yeah.
Josh (27:37.485)
Yeah.
Wolfie (27:37.696)
with the depth of field, but that'll never happen. So what his alternative was, was, hey, this Whistler event does provide an opportunity where you can have the depth of field on a North American race course. And I think that's the direction that he was going with that.
Josh (27:40.258)
Yep.
Josh (27:57.568)
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And I think on the level of the what you were talking about with the plane flying from Russia to South Africa, South Africa to Antarctica back and all of the, you know, 25 millionaires who were able to get to South Africa and how they got there and all this, there should be some celebration around that. In as much as it's true, let's assume it is for the conversation, we should celebrate that if it's our great American runners and great Canadian runners, that the transportation
And therefore the, let's say, I think they might say the carbon footprint, the emissions, all that sort of stuff is significantly less. And so we do have the chance almost, yeah, to, I think about the mountain, the big mountain, the beautiful area, UTMB's ability to facilitate it. And then I also believe that Gary Robin's race is probably going to thrive. Assuming UTMB's thrives too, they can thrive at the same time. They can thrive together.
Wolfie (28:56.962)
Absolutely. I mean, I think that's definitely something where somebody goes over, maybe they run the UTMB Whistler event and they fall in love with the area. And then, yeah, they want to go back, but they want to now experience it through Gary Robbins lands, right? Like I just think that, yeah, bringing more people into the area will just lift, you know, the entire race community, not just that weekend, right? But beyond as people want to explore more and see what they've got to offer over there.
Josh (29:05.869)
Yeah.
Josh (29:11.17)
Yeah.
Josh (29:19.479)
Yeah.
Josh (29:25.014)
Yeah, I mean, UTMB, I was talking to a buddy here. He used to be the head of sport for Singapore, but did significant. essentially facilitated bringing a UFC type sport to Myanmar. And he's, he's looking to get this job at, at UTMB right now, because UTMB needs to grow in order to, to satisfy their business plan. They have to grow.
They have to grow in Asia specifically and, but really everywhere because the idea is that you need to be able to run UTMB races in order to run the UTMB race, the main event. And if you live in certain parts of Asia and you're a great runner, you can't, have to invest $10,000 to go get a couple of stones, a few stones, and you're not going to do that three times. So they're missing out on a massive amount of business from a business standpoint, massive amount of great runners who can't.
Do that.
So here we are in America saying, Hey, if UTMB is inevitable, if it's an inevitable thing, if the Ironman deal, it's like, this is happening. This it's going here. I don't think the world trail majors is going to even touch what UTMB is trying to do. If it's an inevitable force, then we need Whistler and we need all of them and we need Gary. We knew what Gary's doing, but we need it. We need that. like Jason's take and I like your paraphrase of it.
Wolfie (30:48.076)
Yeah.
Wolfie (30:52.406)
Yeah, I cause I, you know, I get some type of fatigue towards UTMB, right? It's, you know, every year it's just, you know, it's chamomile and you always are going back to the same place with this, knowing that that's the only place that's going to provide you with the depth of field. And so, you know, yeah, it would be great. Like I've always thought it would be like, why can't we just lift that same starting line and drop it somewhere in the United States?
Josh (30:58.477)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (31:09.238)
Right. Yeah.
Wolfie (31:21.516)
But again, we're handcuffed by, you know, the preservation and protection of the lands, which is kind of like, I mean, I don't know, to me, kind of like, it kind of seems a little hypocritical, right? Like with protecting lands and, you know, being environmentally conscious, we'll outsource that though to Europe. We're fine if Europe wants to have...
Josh (31:24.365)
Yeah.
Josh (31:28.002)
Yeah.
Josh (31:34.603)
Mmm.
Josh (31:44.361)
yeah.
Wolfie (31:46.986)
thousands run their trails. We'll go and participate in the abuse of the trails. So we're not so concerned about the actual physical land because as long as we get an okay to do it, as long as a government official or body tells us it's okay to go and abuse this land, we'll do it. At home,
Josh (31:56.77)
Yeah.
Josh (32:03.82)
Yeah, yeah, not in my backyard.
Wolfie (32:07.738)
That, come on now, like it will seem like, I just, tease that a little bit. I pick at that because it's like, I mean, the trails at Mont Blanc, when I see them, they still look beautiful. They still look managed. They still look like they're authentic. So why can't, why could it, what's the case for us not being able to accommodate that here? We're not capable of doing the same things that they do.
Josh (32:09.102)
Ha
Josh (32:12.791)
Yeah.
Josh (32:21.29)
Yes, yeah.
Josh (32:28.685)
Yeah.
Let me drive it home. There was a runner who, because of the Dasha Dasha car company sponsoring UTMB, back to that point, he said, I'm not running UTMB this year. I am not gonna go. This was last year. And to drive the point home, I don't even know, I don't even remember who said it. And that guy was not at UTMB. And guess what? Now no one has any idea what that guy's been up to the last two years.
And there may be a whole bunch of people who had throwing it out there and then they're not going. And now we have no idea who they are. So I don't know. I mean, I don't necessarily know the overall answer, but I do like this idea, regardless of why of being able to have that to, I want that in my backyard. And if the closest we can get is to what did someone call it the other day? America's top hat, Canada, I'll go there.
That's awesome.
Wolfie (33:31.714)
Right. Ultimately, I'd like it to be here, you know, but it seems like the conversation, there's not much appetite in the trail space by most of the community and, you know, the people who run the races to try or, you know, even advocate for larger race fields, right? Like to expand permits, right? Or I don't know, maybe it's just a government agency thing where they just get an iron fist that's, you know, basically unpenetrable, but...
Josh (33:34.912)
Yes. Yeah.
Josh (33:47.468)
Yeah.
Josh (33:56.642)
Yeah.
Wolfie (34:00.992)
It seems like we kind of also agree that we shouldn't have more people running the Western States Trail, for example, or we shouldn't have more people running hard rock. Like it seems like we kind of fall in line with that and embrace the preservation standpoint.
Josh (34:17.858)
Yeah, yeah. So Texas, I believe, is 97 % privately owned land, 3 % public lands. But it's not conducive to a competitor. would seem like, I would wonder if there was a state that some of this wilderness, there was larger wilderness areas that were privately owned. Wyoming might come to mind.
I wonder if, I wonder if that could be a solution where someone caught the vision and they essentially had a, Woodstock, you know, where that guy just had that land in New York and let everybody come to it. It'd be amazing if the community could rally around a private land, Hunter Myler, you know, I think about like the outsiders or something like that, you know, like where they all have their car, their headlights or what, lighting it up. It's like just this bad-ass grassroots. These are the best.
I don't know if private lands are solution. I don't know if people like private land that much.
Wolfie (35:19.432)
Right. That would be a cool image though to see all these, yeah.
Josh (35:22.856)
Wouldn't that be great? See Jim step out of the car with a car with like suicide doors and like come out and like they're literally just going to go for it like 100 mile or grassroots.
Wolfie (35:33.078)
Yeah, especially if they're a gas powered carburetor engine, know. Really just get that nice smell wafting at the start line, you know.
Josh (35:42.268)
Yeah.
Yeah, get it going. Yeah, take full advantage of it being private land.
Wolfie (35:49.771)
Yeah.
Josh (35:51.81)
But okay, so sometimes I'm out running and, you know, on my better days when I'm on trail. I don't know, the culture around unleashed dogs on trails, and to be honest, I don't even know the rules. Are they allowed to be off leash? they supposed to be on leash? I imagine some of these foothill trails that I love so much in Salt Lake, they've gotta be on leash. But it's probably my least favorite thing in the world to run up on a dog on a trail.
And when the owner then looks at you like, the dog like jumps on me while I'm running and the owner looks at me like, you know, isn't this cute, my dog? You know, that stuff, that stuff kills me. You run into dogs out there?
Wolfie (36:38.562)
Yeah, yeah, mean dogs are, you know, hikers, best friends, know, companions, so there's a lot of...
Josh (36:43.638)
I love dogs, by the way. I love them. That's when I get jumped on while running.
Wolfie (36:47.938)
Yeah, no, I agree. think I've heard, this is definitely a topic I think all of us kind of vent privately because nobody wants to kick a dog while it's down, right? The dogs that are always sympathetic, everybody's dog owners, but yeah, mean, it's like, come on, man, have a little bit of etiquette, right? Get your dog leashed up. I've had people I think who have been injured by trying to avoid.
Josh (37:10.435)
Yeah.
Josh (37:16.354)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wolfie (37:17.088)
or a dog trail, yeah, a dog that was on trail. You make a sudden move or just something that was unplanned and yeah, you roll your ankle and you're just like, damn dude, like this stupid dog.
Josh (37:25.44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. What about e-bikes? They're kind of the same thing to me.
Wolfie (37:32.95)
Yeah, that's what I was telling you. was like, of like, you know, if we were to have a head to head matchup, right? If we could just remove one from the trail experience, it would be hard to pick, right? The off-leashed dog versus the, you know, general mountain biker. The e-bike guy goes even a notch up, I think, of the general mountain biker because he's kind of an asshole of even going uphill. Usually, if you're going uphill, you're passing the mountain bikers and it's kind of...
Josh (37:57.794)
Ha
Wolfie (38:01.408)
the one opportunity that can exchange pleasantries with each other, because they're going slow enough and they're not as, you know, focused on their trail. But the E-Bike guy, no, he's just blasting by you.
Josh (38:01.517)
Yeah.
Josh (38:04.822)
Right. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Josh (38:13.154)
Yeah, I feel like the, I mean, I don't even know, like it blows my mind. I think being on the e-bike would probably be a blast. It's just like, I don't know, I mean, as a runner, like just the number of times they're so quietly just flying up right behind you, not quite knocking you over, but then yelling like I'm in their way. And I mean, am, technically I am in their way, but pretty crazy.
Wolfie (38:39.766)
Yeah, yeah. The mountain biker, think is the thing that we encounter most over here. A lot of trails are basically, you know, there's a big mountain biking community. They do a lot of trail work. So, I mean, I think, you know, they, they do kind of like, you know, buff out the trails so that they're, you know, they've got the berms and the right places and, know, these little jumps. Like they're maintaining the trail, but are they, are they abusing it in the way that, you know, it's not, it's natural.
landscape anymore, right? So it's like, there's a case to be made that yes, they're doing trail maintenance, but they're really doing trail alterations more so than anything. So, you know, I can't stand that. There's a certain, there's, certain areas over here where like, yeah, they're, they're well known, like downhill sections. And I these guys are just ripping downhill, you know, but it's like part of the trail. So it's like, I'm coming up and I'm having to jump, you know, jump off trail just to avoid this guy screaming down. Yeah. It's never good.
Josh (39:12.035)
Right.
Josh (39:29.815)
Yeah.
Josh (39:33.838)
Yeah.
Josh (39:37.782)
Not the thing I want. And going in the winter, I guess it's a little bit less. I don't mind the... I mean, I get running with the dog because of the big game. I hate big game. I hate running into and running in anything. I'm typically a frady cat out there, but I don't love the dog jumping on me, especially in the cold. Running in the snow, maybe it's a little bit less, a little bit more solitude out there, but yeah, I don't know.
If you got a dog and you run with him off leash, I do absolutely love you and I do love your dog. But get off my lawn. You know?
Wolfie (40:15.714)
Yeah. Yeah. I think it just, you know, I would have met, I would like to think that the right mindset when you're bringing your dog into a trail is to assume everyone you encounter is afraid of dogs. You know, don't assume that everybody has a comfort level with dogs and you know, should already know that your dog is, you know, basically part human and is going to greet you with just, you know, the sweetest kindest heart, right? Like I think
Josh (40:17.102)
you
Josh (40:28.3)
Yeah.
Josh (40:43.15)
Yeah.
Wolfie (40:44.31)
Sometimes you just get a little comfortable knowing your dog's behavior and assuming everybody else just engages with dogs with the same assumption.
Josh (40:52.962)
Yeah, I mean to prove I'm a dog person, like we literally waited to do this family traveling around the world until our dog passed. And that was an indefinite thing. And when our dog passed, that kind of helped was one of the many doors that opened for us. I like dogs. So that's important because I'm sure most people aren't going to love the final minutes of this. Anyway, training. How's it going? We'll wind down with training. Are you out every morning still? Saw some big miles, speedy miles.
Wolfie (41:19.84)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're having to pivot. like that's the life of a, of an ultra runner with a family and a wife. And, she bought a, a travel trailer, a couple of weeks ago and we're fully gotten that thing before a trip here in a couple of weeks. Right. So it's basically, we've got a insane amount of work to do on the trailer and a short time to do it. And so, yeah, running is going to have to pivot a little bit to make sure that I'm not all banged up and.
Josh (41:33.634)
Okay.
Josh (41:43.159)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wolfie (41:50.018)
not wanting to get out there on my knees and do stuff. But I mean, she's taken over most of the decorating and everything, but yeah, exactly. Something always new to kind of derail the plans that we thought we had. We build out these nice, beautiful 15-week plans and life doesn't work that way.
Josh (41:56.268)
Remodeling.
Josh (42:08.364)
Yeah. Well, all right. Going into going into the colder months, less, there's less events. mean, there's certainly going to be some fun Southern hemisphere stuff as know, Tara, where I think, you know, that's February, there's just not going to be a ton to talk about. So if you listen to these episodes of Brian and I, and you have any thoughts on stuff you want to hear us talk about, please let us know. Leave a comment. If you listen on Spotify or shoot us emails or direct messages on Instagram, that's where we're most active. But yeah.
Wolfie (42:36.918)
Yeah, if you're still tuned in, yeah, let us know if we need to unpack the election. We can certainly take a nice little eight week break from Bad Runners Take and get into the political sphere as the... Exactly, right? mean, hey.
Josh (42:53.688)
Bad runners take on politics. Winter edition of Ultra Runners.
Wolfie (42:59.17)
We would be remiss to not mention the amount of DNF themed stories and posts that were made by our trail friends on the social medias yesterday. So we could possibly have a topic there of comparing the different posts that you saw that were in the same spirit of the DNF posts. maybe a topic.
Josh (43:08.663)
Mmm
They were very DNFE.
Josh (43:24.182)
Yeah, send them along. Send along your favorites and we'll see. We'll just see if there's any momentum.
Wolfie (43:29.078)
Yeah, little reaction video.
Josh (43:30.86)
Yeah. All right. Well, let's do this again soon. See you.
Wolfie (43:33.686)
Alright boss.
