ep103 • Matt Trappe - What Every brand should steal from Red bull.
Matt Trappe recently started a Trail Running lifestyle brand called Auteur Sportif. He writes a brilliant substack (a Matter of Brand) celebrating running brands and their storytelling.
In this episode we celebrate the great brands and enjoy a brainstorm how to make the good ones better.
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Josh (00:01.27)
I wasn't a great student in college. I hated college. I hated school, hated everything about it. But I did, I failed out of the entrepreneurship school at the University of Utah and I had like two hours to pick a new major. And I went with strategic communication with an emphasis on branding and I enjoyed it a lot. But this one professor made me read word for word an entire textbook. And at the end of the textbook, after like four weeks of review, review, review,
He said, there's only one thing I want you to know is that everything communicates something. And I'll never forget it. I wish he had just told me that, but I read this whole book and so everything communicates something. And I feel like, like I get it academically. I even have some intuition around branding and I obsess over branding. But my guess today is like the most satisfying read that I've heard.
on branding. I mean that I've read and I mean it, you're laughing, but I mean it. So first, Matt, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for all that you're doing about branding. I don't know how I can't wait to learn more about you and that. And I can't, can't wait to have the deep dive into branding. So welcome to the podcast.
Matt (00:59.928)
Thank you.
Matt (01:09.415)
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm coming at it, I think, from a slightly different perspective than a lot of people maybe come at branding, being from a really strong storytelling and creative background. yeah, I don't have all the answers. I'm not right on everything, but I like writing about it. I like thinking about it. And I just put it out there to hopefully get others doing the same.
Josh (01:29.282)
But you have opinions and that's what I like. I like when people have opinions and they're strong opinions and they're generally backed up. even aside from having opinions about it, the thing that really got me most excited about when I originally reached out to you was your article on just, I don't know, I mean just riffing on ideas of here's things that these certain brands could do for their sort of in-person installations at.
events or anything like that, that would just be more memorable and each one was super memorable and I just got I got really pumped on.
Matt (02:00.127)
Yeah, thanks. Those are kind of difficult because they're just random ideas. Some of them will apply. I don't know the ins and outs of every brand situation, right? So some will apply better to others. Some will make no sense for whatever brand I may suggest it for. But from an outsider perspective, they're just ways to think about things differently, help you stand out a bit, and really just provide value for the community and for the sport because we all love, we love those things.
Josh (02:08.845)
That's right.
Josh (02:13.838)
Yeah.
Josh (02:23.16)
Yeah.
Matt (02:26.493)
We love going to races and doing all this stuff and being in it. Everybody's geeking out. Nobody's doing this because they have to. Everybody's in this because they love it. so I just like contributing to that.
Josh (02:26.498)
Yeah.
Josh (02:33.934)
Yeah. And you don't even go ahead. Yeah. And I don't think we even notice, when brands are doing a good job at it. I'm seeing your hat. I think it says North face on it. Yeah. It makes me think of the old North face endurance runs. That's where I really cut my teeth on, on trail and they were fantastic. Like when I now after having my events and going to so many events, they were so good at pulling that off. And I just, I, and what it has accomplished with me. And I'd love to know your take on what
Matt (02:38.815)
.
Matt (02:43.743)
That's a North Face, a little North Face beanie, yeah.
Matt (02:49.128)
They're great.
Great.
Matt (02:58.654)
Yes.
Josh (03:02.016)
If this is what they want, all it's really given to me is like a fond feeling for North Face and I can't put my finger on it's just like when I see North Face, I think, man, my first 50K attempt, my first 50 mile attempt, the mountains of Park City. Like when I think of North Face, I think of that event. Is that the goal? I mean, is that where they're going with these things?
Matt (03:09.449)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (03:22.071)
Well, like you said before, everything communicates something. I think events, whether you're sponsoring or activating at them or they're like owned events, like they are, you know, the North Face Endurance Challenge. Yeah, they help to communicate that experience and that message of your brand. And they're one of several ways to do that, but a really effective one, particularly post COVID, because people are just even more excited about doing amazing things and having experiences in person.
Josh (03:34.286)
Yeah.
Matt (03:52.016)
Instead of digitally, like we spent two years or whatever, just confined to. So yeah, they're huge and you're spot on there. The North Face events were awesome.
Josh (03:54.381)
Yeah.
Josh (04:00.466)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in the intro that you didn't hear here, you know, I'm going into some more detail about, you know, who you are and what you've done, but let's, let's hit some of the high level from, from your perspective here of, you know, what makes you think that you can go right about brands the way that you do, you know, where are you coming from? What's your background here?
Matt (04:12.174)
Sure.
Matt (04:17.759)
Okay. So I have more of a marketing background than I think people realize. A lot of people know I've taken a lot of photos, I've made a lot of films and that's a huge part of it. But I went to business school years ago, I was a marketing entrepreneurship strategy focus and I worked at two different startups in a different world, like in the biotech world. But small companies, I ran marketing, I worked in sales.
And just had a massive input on new product development, like all of our outbound marketing, inbound marketing, did a lot on a really high level. mean, it was a startup, so we had a board of directors. was accountable for presenting on our marketing, our progress, a lot of our sales numbers to that board and those investors. And I learned a ton. I learned a ton. I wanted to do something that was a little bit more creatively fulfilling, like being very much like a dual brained person.
And that was why I moved over into more creative field. I came to, so I came to shooting photos. I came to making films like from that mindset. Like that was how I always looked at this. didn't go to art school or anything like that. I was always very much thinking about branding and marketing and the strategy behind things. And over the course of 10, 12 years of making films and shooting campaigns, I gathered just a lot of information from watching
Josh (05:19.63)
Mm.
Matt (05:43.775)
dozens and dozens of brands do this in different ways at different events, different, you know, from campaigns to films, athlete teams, the athlete summits, and you name it. So I got to see a lot of things done a lot of different ways. And I think my mindset approaching branding now is very much from the storytelling perspective. Like I think I can take a lot of, you know, intangible ideas and things happening out there and like,
run a thread through like a cohesive storyline that links a lot of things. I think a lot of creators can do that. I think a lot of photographers, lot of filmmakers are really good at that. And that's, mean, that's really the essence of branding is creating and communicating then this storyline about what the brand means and what a brand stands for and relaying that to people. I look at
Josh (06:15.693)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (06:36.415)
you know, say making a film, have all of these different components that go into a film from your, you know, your music to your voiceover to transitions to graphics, to, you know, the color treatment, all these come together to cohesively like, you know, relay a story or a mood. and you dynamically move those up and down throughout, you know, it's part of good storytelling. And there's so many parallels to, to brands there that I look at, you know, athletes and products and
retail and activations and all these things as the sound design and the color treatment. They're just different tools that you can use to relay what your brand is all about. so that's sort of the perspective that I'm coming to all of this with. yeah, I just have a lot of ideas. I've formed a lot of opinions over seeing a lot of things and I'm writing about it. And hopefully that just gets everybody else thinking about this too.
Josh (07:23.082)
Yeah.
Josh (07:28.654)
Yeah, well, you know, I keep saying it's a great read. We'll link it in the show notes, your sub stack. But let's just kind of let's do some of it in real time. I sent you some questions beforehand, you know, generally where we're going. But this is, know, this is the stuff that I just love it. And I think, you know, you're offering perspective on athlete contracts, all this sort of stuff, but you're pushing it through this lind lens of brand. And so I think maybe the first question I think anyone would be curious to know is, is there a brand that's that's firing on all cylinders?
Matt (07:38.61)
Okay.
Matt (07:48.307)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Josh (07:58.636)
And when I say all cylinders, I'm using your list, story, product, events, cultural relevance, retail, athletes, aesthetic, know, everything. Is there any trail running brand that's just crushing it on all of
Matt (08:01.319)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (08:11.515)
So let me, do you want me to talk through those sort of criteria that I'm looking at first or do want me to dive right into it? Okay, I'll do a quick overview. So a way that I like to look at it is I have six different categories that for me, if you're really hitting on all of these, you're doing branding really, really well. So the first is the story, the message of the brand, your voice, your behavior, how the brand sort of shows up from a personality perspective.
Josh (08:15.094)
Yeah, maybe, yeah. You choose.
Matt (08:39.673)
related to that as the aesthetic. So, you know, the frame visually that, that your brand shows up in, and then, then you have obvious things like products. you know, if you're doing products really well, and all these things need to align like your products and your story, there needs to be some cohesion there. events, you know, whether owned events, meaning like, you know, the North Face Endurance Challenge, or activated events, know, you're, you're showing up at UTMB or wherever and you have.
Josh (08:47.522)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (09:08.815)
you know, some activation there. Cultural relevance, that's a very intangible one. That's sort of the conversation, how current your brand is in, you know, like modern culture, maybe the news, but also like style, music, how else does the brand sort of permeate into your life outside of, you know, simply providing a running product. Retail, both owned, whether you have your own stores, you know, like
Josh (09:31.874)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (09:36.991)
Like, Hoka has some of their own stores now. Nike, of course, has lot of their own stores. Or activated within retail, like Brooks does that super, super well, right? They work really well with their own specialty. And then sort of the last one, which is a little harder to decipher, is the internal team and the culture at brands. It is, and I know a bit of it being in the industry, but no one knows everything about every brand inside and out. Are there just some kind of superstars crushing it and
Josh (09:38.988)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (09:53.622)
Yeah, it's kind of inside baseball in that one.
Josh (10:00.269)
Yeah.
Right.
Matt (10:06.981)
A big thing for me in that area is like, which brands do you seek when you go to a race, which people at the brands are just part of the community? Like that goes really far for me in that category to, you know, where you just, you show up and the athlete manager from the North face is just there because of course she's always there. And those, those sorts of things, I think that goes really far away. So, story products, events, cultural relevance, retail aesthetic, and then, that internal team. So.
Josh (10:18.359)
Josh (10:26.039)
Yeah.
Matt (10:37.875)
Based on those, who's sort of crushing it? I spent a little bit of time thinking about this before. I don't want to always come in unprepared. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Josh (10:38.956)
Yep.
Josh (10:43.694)
Okay. And it's important to note, let me put this disclaimer out there so you don't have to. We might get negative on some of this sort of stuff. This is purely for a fun of branding and a hope that if we do throw anything out there that it would be constructive, know, any brands listening in, we're just having a good time here. We love, this is as much about geeking out about branding and not about, you know, trying to tear down any brands. But at first we're gonna, you're gonna crown, you know, who you think's the best.
Matt (10:54.495)
Yeah.
Matt (11:11.059)
Well, a lot of these are based on your perceptions too. Everyone lives in different worlds, especially digitally. We all have our own little algorithmic silos that we're in. So everybody is differing opinions. And as a brand, your big job is to listen to all of this, decipher it, because what the community is saying about your brand is really what you're all about, regardless of what you think internally. So that sort of listening is a big component along those lines. Anyway, I had like...
Josh (11:25.902)
Mmm.
Matt (11:40.327)
I had a few, I had three that I kind of thought of in the trail running world that for me, I think are putting a lot of these things together. The first one is Solomon. I think Solomon does a good job with their story. Their products are strong. Events, the Golden Trail series, I think is really strong and is going to become something stronger for them because it's differentiated, right? It's on the, it's the shorter races. It stands out from all the hundred
Josh (11:49.422)
Mm.
Josh (12:06.464)
Yes.
Matt (12:09.823)
big hundreds and things out there. You could probably say the same on the other side of the spectrum of the two hundreds, but it's more inviting for maybe people getting into trail running that maybe want to start with a shorter distance. So I think that's a good asset. Cultural relevance, I think they have the sports style angle that kind of carries people and carries the brand outside of pure performance. They have really great athletes. They're in the news for a lot of those reasons.
Josh (12:10.978)
Yep.
Josh (12:22.328)
Yeah.
Matt (12:39.743)
The relevance is there. Retail, I think they're activating better and better with, you know, run specialty, speaking from the US perspective, but they have a lot of their own stores and they opened one in New York recently. So retail is coming along. Aesthetically, I think they're more distinct than most. Just be recognized.
Josh (13:00.59)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Matt (13:04.479)
Yeah, the internal team and the culture, think they do a really good job there too. A lot of people in that brand really live the sport and live that outdoor mountain world that the brand stands for. So I think that's a strong one. I don't know, what do you think?
Josh (13:19.598)
The thing that first comes to mind for them after many of the things that you said, like, is how they've accomplished the, what would you call it? Streetwear or, you know, city vibes, lifestyle. Yeah, here in Paris, have, I've seen two of their brick and mortars. Stunning. I mean, just stunning. I can't imagine they sell anything. It's like art. It's like you're going into a museum. It's just beautiful. And yes, the window shopping.
Matt (13:24.414)
Yeah.
Matt (13:31.424)
huh. Yeah, sport style they call it. But yeah. Yeah.
Matt (13:40.883)
Really cool. It's all branding. Yeah, it's great. Yeah.
Josh (13:48.034)
The goal, and maybe you could speak to this too, is the goal to actually sell at these stores or is the goal to have, is this essentially an activation for them? Is it a cost, not a revenue generator?
Matt (13:58.911)
I mean, look, I haven't been specifically responsible for one of those stores before, but if you have one in a really prime location, I think that says a lot about your brand, what you stand for. Trying to be a premium product or premium brand, setting up right on Fifth Avenue in New York or wherever, that all communicates things. if the shop makes money or breaks even, I think that's great, but there's a huge advertising component.
proximity component, events you can have, and the people you can get into the shop and then potentially wary, all those go into that. So yeah, there's a lot of value outside strictly like, know, bottom line revenue of that shop specifically.
Josh (14:46.092)
Yeah. And then, and you see people, I mean all over in America in here, but here, especially a lot of people are wearing trail shoes and they're nowhere near running a trail and these shoes will never touch a trail. Can you speak to, mean, just as a, as a guess, as an insight, like what's the play there for them? Is it just like they've identified a market that, you know, who will buy it? seems like it's sometimes connected to like the Japanese street wear thing, which I'm, I'm far from being in style. So, you I can't speak to that, but.
It seems connected to that world.
Matt (15:17.861)
I love all that stuff. think it's really, really fun and interesting. It's very creative to think about what you perceive as being in style or not in style or what you want to wear. It's all really personal to you. So I think that's all really, really fun. It's not science-based. It's like art. And that's why I really like it. And the second you can really easily define and fit something in a box and like quantify it, I'm kind of bored with it.
Josh (15:30.177)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Matt (15:43.079)
It's like, let's try to figure out all this other kind of intangible stuff that has a lot of appeal, but try to define why. And so that falls into that category for me. I think it brings people into the brand when they're not running. If you support, Solomon, for example, or North Face, lot of brands do this. You can wear it around the clock. That's a big revenue opportunity for them. You can identify with the brand and align with them.
Josh (15:43.094)
Josh (15:49.269)
Yeah.
Josh (16:07.022)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (16:11.027)
when you're not necessarily out on the trail or out on a run. And that's really the majority of everybody's time. So there's a huge opportunity there.
Josh (16:18.25)
in just about every business that I've ever started been a part of. I've never been the product partner. I'm not, we kind of texted about this briefly and you're not a big product guy. I'm not a big, I'm far from product. And I'm an entrepreneur and I can manage, but most of the evidence of this, most is embodied by, I would run in Solomon shoes and my feet are too fat for them. And I would,
Matt (16:27.262)
Yeah.
Josh (16:44.822)
try and run 100 milers in them because I liked the way my feet looked when I looked down. That's all, you know, it goes really far. Yeah.
Matt (16:49.78)
That goes really far, doesn't it? I mean, you bought those and really just for that reason, you probably tried them on in the store and you convinced yourself that they fit, right? That happens. There's a lot of value in that. So, yeah.
Josh (16:58.666)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so so I would say Solomon has accomplished that. And then being here in France, I'm blown away by Annecy where they're from, just how influential that part of the world is for trail, for mountain running, you know, everything. It's it's it's it's a special area. So I've grown especially fond since I've been living here.
Matt (17:11.667)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (17:25.779)
Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. know, another brand with a presence there that I had on my, the top of my list too was, was the North Face. I think they're, you know, when you were doing your product deep dives, they've come a long way in that footwear, particularly category. And I think a lot of what they're doing on, know, in all this criteria that I've been talking about, I think they're coming along really well there as well. I mean, they've
Josh (17:39.566)
Yeah.
Josh (17:43.213)
Yeah.
Matt (17:53.317)
sponsored Trans Grand Canaria now, like a really, really big race in the Canary Islands. And yeah, think, yeah, I want to give North Race a nod. really like what they're doing. Kind of returning to maybe a bit of where they were brand-wise in years past, you know, when we were talking about really admiring them, but now doing it with product, that's a lot more legit and credible.
Josh (17:56.537)
Okay. I didn't know that. That's cool.
Josh (18:09.062)
Mm. Yep.
Josh (18:17.486)
Yeah, what I love about again, you know, it comes back to me, like what makes me remember them. mean, when you think of a brand like where does your mind instantly go with North Face, I instantly go to Zach and Katie and what they wear at UTMB. I think North Face does a fantastic job of creating memorable, you know, I want to say outfits. I don't know the right way to say it for for its teams. It's really they're really memorable. The purple, the really like
Matt (18:26.608)
Mm.
Matt (18:31.699)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (18:40.317)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure.
Josh (18:45.546)
nice like tannish shorts like it just there's stuff that calls to memory that they did they've done a great job with.
Matt (18:51.889)
Yeah, I agree that the color that they went with this past year at UTME, we could probably argue over whether it's blue or purple. I think the point of it is to be in between. Yeah, but it's really memorable, right? I don't know that I personally really liked it, but I still really remember it I can picture it in my head. when I think about what you just brought up right now about those athletes and their wins this past year, that popped right front center in my head. So it works.
Josh (18:58.35)
really, really? That's funny.
Yes. Yep.
Josh (19:08.417)
Exactly.
Josh (19:19.182)
Yeah. And I was surprised to learn from Taylor Bodine on those, deep dives, you know, he's the product expert of just how good those shoes are, their current portfolio, just how it's the most underrated. And then I was fortunate enough to go have dinner with Jean-Marc Dijon here in Paris after Taylor said, Hey, this is, you know, this is the guy. And then all of sudden Satisfye hires him and like, he's here. I'm just going to email him. And we went and had dinner. He wasn't up for having a podcast. He's real introverted, but just to like sit and chat with this legend of shoes was
Matt (19:23.005)
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Matt (19:35.071)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (19:39.572)
Yes.
Matt (19:45.927)
Yes. Yes. Yeah, I was fortunate to meet him before he moved over to Satisfye when he was based in the Denver area here with North Face. Yeah, so I got to meet him here through my friend, Brett Rivers, who I want to give a shout to. Brett's doing a really good job at North Face too. I think he'll carry on a lot of what Jean-Marc is working on.
Josh (19:48.895)
something otherworldly.
Josh (19:56.735)
that's right. Yeah.
Josh (20:02.627)
Yeah, nice.
The best thing I can say about Jean-Marc is that when we sat down to talk, he only wanted to ask me questions. And that's not about me. It's just that type of person who just always cares about who else is in the room and wants to learn about other people. I was really impressed by that. For someone who's that important, you know?
Matt (20:15.166)
Yes.
Matt (20:26.461)
Yes. And being that curious about other people and about other ideas is the reason he's as successful as he is,
Josh (20:29.153)
Yes.
Absolutely. Yeah. So North Face, Sullivan, super solid choices. What's your third?
Matt (20:37.789)
Yeah. So the third I have is probably on a lot of people's lists, but I think Satisfy is doing a lot right. They're hitting for a smaller brand that's hitting on a lot of those areas. mean, even they have their own events, the Saddles 100 that they have in in Arizona here that they're just really doing a lot of, a lot of what you need to do on a smaller scale. And I think they have a lot of really great growth brands and I'm excited to see what they have at TRE here next week. They've got a lot of new stuff coming out. Yeah.
Josh (20:42.989)
Yeah.
Josh (20:52.141)
Yeah.
Josh (21:05.711)
yeah, I mean, I thought they were going to be dropping a shoe there, but they already released it. But I thought they were coming out with an in-house shoe that Jean-Marc Dejean was doing. I don't understand what they're doing. Okay.
Matt (21:13.087)
We're going to find out. Yeah, we're going to find out. And apparently there's women's apparel coming too. So yeah, so I'm excited to see all of that. But they're their storytelling and communicating throughout these different channels is really outstanding. They have a message and they have a visual and it's really distinct and they do a really great job. And that's why they're able to get $240 for a pair of shorts or whatever. I mean, it really is.
Josh (21:19.411)
Okay, nice.
Josh (21:32.033)
Yeah.
Josh (21:37.472)
Yeah.
I'm trying to remember how you worded it in one of your posts. I think it was maybe on LinkedIn saying that Satisfye does a really good job of not being for everybody. So some brands, especially a new brand, a brand that's that new. you know, let's give Brice Partouche his credit as a brand master. They're such a new brand, very young, few years old, and to already, I mean, to come out of the gates knowing to build, they're willing to, to
Matt (21:50.175)
Mm.
Matt (21:56.574)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (22:08.398)
limit their sales. They're willing to say, if you're not in, you know, we're not making this for everybody. I don't remember how you word it, but that's one of the things I think that's special for such a young brand to have nailed so well.
Matt (22:11.871)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (22:17.725)
Yeah. I think the challenge is as you get bigger and you have growth pressures to grow into other markets and expand, particularly if you end up publicly traded at some point and you're responsible to shareholders, that is a really difficult challenge. you fall into the trap of being everything to everybody because of those pressures to grow. they're not there yet, which is why they're just like rolling right now. But brands hit that. They hit that ceiling. Yes.
Josh (22:23.563)
Yes.
Josh (22:29.025)
Yeah.
Josh (22:35.286)
Yes.
Josh (22:41.706)
He clearly, he clearly took a massive investment and you know, there's lots of changes happening there that are coming with growth. So, you know, at some point when they fully, I don't know if he would still call them as early adopters, but if he, he fully brings them all in house, you know, there is, if, especially if he brought in private equity, I don't know the type of money he brought in, but you're exactly right. North Face felt it and they're somehow one of the brands that's actually getting to fix it.
Matt (23:02.365)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (23:06.951)
Mm-hmm
Josh (23:10.73)
most people I think of like Columbia or something like that, they just kind of go into bland nothingness and satisfy. They're in that lane right now where they've got money. They're spending it on who they are.
Matt (23:18.035)
That's right.
Matt (23:22.931)
Yeah, you're exactly right. mean, VF in general is having a lot of issues in North faces too, but I think all the components are there for them to work themselves through that. And I fully expect them to do that. But that's a natural, know, like life cycle issue for a brand as you reach sort of a maturity point and you have to attack things differently. yeah, it's natural evolution and learning process for everybody, right?
Josh (23:32.652)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (23:44.46)
Yeah.
Josh (23:51.67)
I hear at TRE they might be doing an event at Commodore and I hope that that's true. So that's a restaurant owned by Philip Spear who's a runner. Awesome story. I Hoka did a documentary about him. He does the Commodore Run Club, but if nothing else, I'll just give a shout out. Go eat there when you're in Austin. It's the best. But I think Satisfye did a buyout one night and they're doing an event there. That's what I heard. I don't have confirmation.
Matt (24:06.452)
Yeah.
Matt (24:12.583)
I will check it out. Yeah, that sounds...
Matt (24:19.845)
Okay, yeah, we'll have to check it out. The part of the fun part is like finding out about all this stuff going on, right? I just have a blast at TRE.
Josh (24:26.029)
Yeah.
Yeah. All right. you have any thoughts on close? Who's close? What brands are close but not quite? It feels like they're firing on all of them, but maybe at 85 % or they're nailing most, but they're not one.
Matt (24:40.016)
and
Matt (24:43.913)
There's, I think there's a lot in this category. I think this probably makes up most of the brands, right? Let me go through a few here that I jotted down. I think, I think Hoka is very close. I think Hoka has a very strong, like Hoka just crushes it from an event standpoint. I mean, they're everywhere, right? They have all the races and it's branded out and everywhere and they do a really good job around that.
Josh (24:46.604)
Yes.
Josh (24:57.87)
Mmm.
Josh (25:04.984)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (25:13.663)
I think they're, I don't know if I'm gonna go through every single one. I think what I would love to see more of from Hoka is like little bit more story. Like for me, Hoka is a really, super strong product that a lot of people have really bought into and feel a lot of loyalty towards. the second you, I worked run specialty for a while too. The second you slip your foot in that Hoka, like you're sold, right? And that goes so far in run specialty, that just initial impression.
Josh (25:23.214)
Hmm
Josh (25:27.287)
Yeah.
Josh (25:38.752)
Yeah.
Matt (25:43.113)
but I want to know more about what the brand means. Like when you think about Satisfye, you, right? It's very distinct. You can picture like Satisfye and I have, it's fuzzier for me with Hoka. So that I think is the knock I would say against them. What do you think? Yeah, what do you think? Okay.
Josh (25:48.756)
Yeah. Yep.
Josh (25:56.37)
Mmm Well, let's go down that road. Well, I want to go down the road a little bit like yeah when I think of Hoka I don't know. I'm I you know, I am NOT again. I'm not on the cutting edge of Anything. I'm not an early adopter. That's just not kind of where I'm at But I still tend to think of Hoka 2011 for some reason Even though now I know they're athletes obviously crushing it
Matt (26:22.951)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Josh (26:24.526)
You know, I want to see Hayden Hawks take over the world. He's I love that he came back. He started there, left, came back. Like I love everything they have going. But I yes, yeah, of course. But I don't I don't know. I mean, to me, they still. They were a gimmick at first to me. And so they still have they're still a gimmicky. They still they still live in a gimmicky place in my heart.
Matt (26:33.105)
Yep, athletes great. Right, check. Yep. Yep.
Josh (26:52.718)
Even though I did the deep dive with Taylor Bodine again on their products and 30, the shoe count, think at like the last UTMB was like 33%. And then most of those are the Speed Goat. So I know that I'm the one that's the problem in that, but I don't know why it's been hard. I still see Hoka One One also. it's been, so it just, again, I'm very 09 to 20, let's say 13 on Hoka. That's my fault.
Matt (26:55.977)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (27:03.699)
Yep. Yep.
Matt (27:14.974)
Yeah, right.
Matt (27:20.465)
Sure, Yeah, it.
Josh (27:22.37)
But maybe it's because they're not telling the story. Maybe the story is missing and they haven't owned a new play. The original story of Moore Cushion, maximalist, while Chris McDougall was doing minimalism, was just such an interesting contrast. That's where it lived and I never, I just didn't graduate. It's on me.
Matt (27:32.223)
Sure. Sure.
Matt (27:37.289)
Well, so that's the product story, right? The brand story should be related but sort of adjacent to that. And if I have to describe Hoka without talking about the product, I struggle a little bit to do that. And that's where I'm coming from. Yeah.
Josh (27:44.482)
Hmm.
Josh (27:51.842)
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Because yes, with Satisfye, North Face, and we didn't even get into their new slogan or this change that's happening there. Yeah, my god, you can describe them without having to talk about their products. Hoka, you can't without Hoka. You can't talk about Hoka without the Speed Goat or without having big maximalist cushion.
Matt (28:05.651)
That's right. That's right.
Matt (28:11.687)
Right, you start talking about the product. Yeah, and so you mentioned that I think that it's worth bringing up here. You mentioned Red Bull and some of our back and forth texts before. So Red Bull has a product, which I don't personally like at all, but they have taken the feeling that they want, that you get from that product, this just adrenaline and intensity, right? And they've personified that. And that's all the events, that's all their marketing.
Josh (28:13.774)
Hmm.
Josh (28:18.912)
Yeah, yes.
Josh (28:24.843)
Hahaha
Josh (28:31.648)
Yes.
Yes.
here.
Yeah.
Matt (28:41.151)
I think going back to Hoka, know, they have the fly human fly and they have their, I think that's intended to do that. That's the way they want you to feel in the product. So similar, but that doesn't really come through for me in all of their marketing, that story quite as much as I'd like to do, guess is where.
Josh (28:47.917)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Josh (28:54.252)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (29:03.467)
Yeah. Yeah. the mention of Red Bull in the back and forth, mean, just obviously worth calling out, like from an entire business model. The reason they have so much margin to do all these amazing events is that they sort of vertically integrated their business model.
You see the Red Bull car going around town because they do their own distribution. I was in coffee. We did our own distribution. I was stealing from that model. So we did our own grocery store facings, all this sort of stuff. And you always saw the Red Bull. Like that's just, you work harder, but there's more money. So Red Bull has built a demand for a product with incredible margin and they spend that margin on brand. don't, mean, do they do product marketing? And maybe you could even define the difference here, product marketing versus brand marketing. I don't know that.
Matt (29:26.622)
Okay.
Josh (29:49.702)
Does Red Bull do product marketing or am I understanding this well enough? It feels like everything they do is all about brand and them jumping off cliffs and wherever God knows where and that's what Red Bull is to me and then I go buy a can.
Josh (30:06.944)
I just lost you. Let me mark that. there you go. You're good.
Matt (30:10.951)
I think I bumped mute. Because they're personifying everything that they want you to feel with the product. It's really brand heavy. There isn't, I can't think of any that I've seen at least product marketing for Red Bull that specifically talks about the product, right? They almost don't even want you to know it. They almost don't even want you to know it's in the product. Yeah, but it's really a focus on the benefits and they've branded that really well.
Josh (30:28.12)
We have touring. Yeah, exactly.
Josh (30:36.246)
Okay. Okay, so is there, could you, what could you take from them and give to Hoka? Just like shooting from the hip. Like what could Hoka learn from the way they do brand that would allow us to start talking about Hoka without having to talk about their shoes?
Matt (30:52.283)
I would lean into that feeling afterwards. think it's a bit there, like I mentioned with this fly component, but I don't really feel that from their marketing, their storytelling, the event activations. There's a lot of blue. I think they lean into a lot of advocacy stories, which is really, really cool. Maybe that's a bit of this allowing people to fly.
Josh (30:56.995)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Josh (31:07.394)
Yeah.
Josh (31:16.492)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (31:21.951)
more metaphorically, but it doesn't really, like, it's a little bit of a stretch, I think. It doesn't really connect.
Josh (31:22.156)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (31:27.619)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think one thing that should show anyone listening about how special it is what you're talking about is You're talking about like Hoka phenomenal brand destroyed earnings projections killed it and you're talking about like the top 1 % like and that would This is that's how hard this is. So I'm trying to say like how special this is, you know
Matt (31:42.146)
That's right. That's That's correct.
It's a great perspective. You don't, you don't, I don't, you of course, through evidence, you don't need to have be humming on all cylinders with all of these things. Hoka is wildly successful. And a lot of brands are wildly successful despite probably missing on several of these criteria that I've subjectively outlined. Yeah.
Josh (31:59.479)
Yeah.
Josh (32:10.648)
Well, what I'm hoping to say is that more so with that is that how hard it is and that brands have put the right team in place and they've taken risks on, you you buy a blimp and put Goodyear on it. You know what I mean? Like how in the world and that becomes part of who you are. So they get the money, they get someone in place, they convince their CFO to let them spend it on something stupid, like a mountain bike course that goes off the edge of whatever in Zion, Utah.
Matt (32:17.567)
100%. Yeah.
Matt (32:25.631)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt (32:38.389)
Red, red, red, red forum page. Yeah.
Josh (32:39.662)
And then all of a sudden it works, you know? And so I think that's what I'm more so saying is like kudos to the ones who did it. And these who are on that edge, I mean, they still have a 33 % shoe count. So at UTMB, so they're doing good, but all right, who else you got on that list? go ahead if you got something else to say.
Matt (32:44.862)
That's correct.
Matt (32:51.743)
That's correct. Yeah, yeah. let's, well, I think that the other thing I was gonna say is the bigger you get and the more growth that you're experiencing, the alignment to tell these stories across all these different areas, which become totally different departments and teams within your organization that once you get big, right? That it just becomes really a lot harder to do cohesively versus the small brand where it's a handful of people that are just really in the same room every day.
Josh (33:21.068)
right. man, yeah.
Matt (33:21.451)
so to speak, all aligning on your story, right? So to your point of it being difficult to do it is, especially as you get bigger. Next on my list, have Tarex, Adidas Tarex, Adidas Outdoor, that I think is similar to North Face, had their product come around from where it had been.
Josh (33:31.365)
At that scale, yeah.
Josh (33:37.684)
okay.
Josh (33:47.2)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Matt (33:49.801)
from a trail shoot perspective. And their athletes, their athlete team, I think all that's coming together. I wanna see a little more story at Similar to Hoka, I think from them, again, Super Hard, really big brand. I think, I thought, when Corinne was let go from UTMB, I wanted to see Tarex really jump on that and I didn't see anything.
Josh (34:04.15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Josh (34:15.624)
Hmm. Yeah.
Matt (34:19.695)
I mean, as a friend of mine and just as someone supporting women in the sport, that really sucked. And I thought that was a huge opportunity for Tarek, so it really won a lot of hearts by stepping up there. didn't see that. But I think this year, looking forward for them, David Roche, when he's doing in the US, smashing Leadville and smashing that javelina and setting up potential showdowns next year.
Josh (34:25.185)
Yeah.
Josh (34:30.23)
Mmm, yeah, yeah.
Josh (34:41.536)
Yeah.
Josh (34:45.907)
man, I know.
Matt (34:47.171)
at Western States, which has everybody just like you said going, man, I think that I hope he, mean, he's doing it in their shoes, but there's no relationship between those two that I'm aware of. So I think that's a huge opportunity for them looking forward. But I think that's another one that's really close, but they're doing a lot right lately.
Josh (34:51.697)
I know don't you want to see it?
Josh (34:56.064)
Yeah. really? Okay.
Josh (35:04.962)
Hmm.
Josh (35:09.12)
Yeah, with with Tarex, I've never put on the shoes. OK, when I go to the flagship Adidas shop here in Paris, they don't have any thing Tarex in there. And, you know, I've done some digging had Thomas Newberger from Believe in the Run on the podcast to talk about the Dossler brothers, you know, doing Puma and Adidas. Such such a fun story. But with Tarex, I wonder. You know.
Matt (35:16.669)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (35:26.566)
Yeah, sure.
Josh (35:36.07)
I don't, don't fool, they don't have a place in my mind. They don't live anywhere other than I do, I like Tom Evans a lot. And so that's a great, and I think of again, great clothes. They're always great with clothes. Like their athletes are always looking, you know, great. But I, you know, they don't seem to borrow from the Adidas brand story. Like the, you know, the mothership. And so, what do you know? Like are they out trying to carve their own way? Are they like,
Matt (35:42.334)
Yes.
Matt (35:56.809)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Josh (36:04.396)
you know, who are they?
Matt (36:06.319)
So I mean, it's a really good question. They have an office here in Boulder and I was there yesterday, coincidentally. Yeah, just coincidentally. And they have David's shoes there. So they talk. But yeah, think that, well, what do you think about, I'll ask you this, what do you think about the Tarek's name versus like, isn't it just Adidas, particularly for running as opposed to say climbing or, know, snow sports that maybe could keep the Tarek's name but.
Josh (36:10.048)
cool. Yeah, I saw some of your photos on Instagram. didn't... Yeah.
Josh (36:32.311)
Yeah.
Matt (36:35.175)
Trail running is broke out from Adidas running, right? And now they have this Tarex name and what do you think that poses problems for?
Josh (36:35.267)
Hmm.
Josh (36:39.277)
Yeah.
Josh (36:42.914)
Well, yes, it does. On my level, I love to name, I love to give everything a name all the time because I romanticize giving it its own brand life. So I have Borderlands Trail Running, but then I have Open Range Races because I want Open Range Races to be its own thing. And then I want Wilder App to be its own thing. I used to call the podcast DFL before DNF because I wanted to give it its own life before realizing I need to call it, I need to.
Matt (37:08.19)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (37:10.218)
settle down on some of that stuff. But you know, I'm just, I'm just one guy having a good time out here with Adidas doing that. I just wonder maybe to look at it generously, were they thinking they were going to give it its own life, like really give it its own life and let it be its own thing and that they were going to give it different brand values, you know, were they going to spin it off? Otherwise I don't understand it. It's not clear to me. And so because of that, then I don't inherently, I don't like it because I don't understand it.
Matt (37:11.688)
Yeah, yeah.
Matt (37:27.519)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (37:32.573)
Yeah.
Matt (37:36.157)
I agree, it doesn't have as much meaning and it needs therefore a lot more work to establish that meaning and carve out, like you put it, that space in your mind. that, I wonder how much more that is established for them in Europe versus here, because all like their team, their marketing, everything you see comes out of Germany for Tarex and for what we see in the trail running world.
Josh (37:44.888)
Yeah.
Josh (37:58.262)
Yeah.
Matt (38:01.967)
And, there's a sales team and there's some people here in the U S but a lot of that messaging, a lot of that marketing, comes, comes from there. And so it's hard for me not living there, not seeing that maybe the nuance of the difference between there and here, but that definitely, there's definitely a gap in that meaning or that communication in North America.
Josh (38:12.843)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Josh (38:20.906)
Okay, I have a really good example of that maybe happening the other way and that is Satisfye is Americana in a lot of ways to me and and Brice has a clear and obvious love for the American Southwest and the myth of the cowboy and all that sort of stuff. I love, mean, being also that, I love that stuff as well. I feel proud to see someone from France understanding what that is like in a pure sense. I love that. But here in Europe, I don't see
Matt (38:29.599)
You're right.
Matt (38:35.441)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt (38:40.478)
Yeah.
Josh (38:50.158)
anybody in satisfy that are running. see they're wearing it in the street application, like, you know, a lifestyle application. So point being when like headquarters is defining brand on a global scale, it's going to nail some places and it's going to miss and others and it feels like satisfies nailing America feel like it's missing. But I don't think they're trying really to get it over here yet.
Matt (38:59.732)
Yeah.
Matt (39:06.579)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (39:17.543)
No. Yeah.
Josh (39:19.093)
And then so then I wonder if it goes the other way with Adidas that like maybe they're with Terax, maybe they're nailing it here in Europe and it's missing in America. That's just a guess. I don't know. Thinking out loud.
Matt (39:31.263)
Yeah, it's a bit hard for me to yet to speak for what someone who, you know, a trail runner in Germany would say to define Tarex. That would be a super interesting thing.
Josh (39:34.242)
Yeah.
Josh (39:38.786)
Well, I've got a guy, my friend Nico Luma, if you're listening, you let us know. He's in Hamburg. I've had him on the podcast before and he's an old trail runner. He could let us know.
Matt (39:46.249)
Perfect, perfect.
Perfect, yeah chime in Nico, tell us how much we're missing the boat here in the States.
Josh (39:53.884)
Yeah. Okay, do you have others on that list? The close but not quite list?
Matt (39:59.439)
I have, so I've got a few, I've got three more on this list. The third one being one that's just really intriguing for me. Okay, so next is New Balance. I think New Balance does so many things right on a broader scale. They're now a sponsor of the WNBA in basketball, which I think is huge and a really, really,
Josh (40:15.157)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (40:21.962)
interesting. Yes.
Matt (40:26.635)
smart and lucrative move for them going forward. I think they're, and I'm speaking very broadly across sports right now, I think their marketing is really distinct. I think they grow their athlete team very deliberately and they market them very well. I think they do a lot of that in track and road as well with their athletes and with their products. It's not in trail as much yet, but I think
Josh (40:27.71)
Absolutely. Some blue ocean there, blue sky.
Josh (40:34.508)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (40:41.23)
Mm.
Matt (40:56.307)
They seem to be pushing more there. They're building out an athlete team in Europe from what I can tell. They just sponsored the Mont Blanc Marathon. So I think there's, I'm, yeah, so I'm kind of watching New Balance. think they're doing a lot of things right. And they, the way they operate is very slowly and very deliberately. And they're not very just kind of, they don't really do things on a whim. And so,
Josh (41:07.648)
wow.
Josh (41:22.37)
Yes.
Matt (41:24.091)
if I start to see that momentum into trail, sort of like there was momentum into basketball years ago, they've very slowly, deliberately and done a great job of building that out. so that's why I say there, I think they're sort of close in our.
Josh (41:29.824)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (41:37.614)
Yeah, I love it. I think of them as like a young heritage brand. So, I don't know, yeah. Yeah. And what's funny is that, to the thing I just learned from you a minute ago, when I think of New Balance, shoes is like sixth on the list. I think of certain ad campaigns I've seen. I also would think of certain pictures of shoes.
Matt (41:43.121)
Mm-hmm. And they have that heritage. That's huge because that's your whole cultural sort of, you know, storied angle. Yeah.
Matt (41:59.839)
Sure. Yeah.
Josh (42:03.64)
But I'm not necessarily thinking of a performance aspect. I'm just thinking of incredible art and the people that wear them. And man, just I don't, I'm not good with like specific product numbers and all that, but some of the shoes that they've released over the years, they were just these shoes to get, you know, to just, you know, I think they rivaled Air Max in a lot of ways by that, that customer who would wear Air Max is around town. So I just, I love their aesthetic. I love everything about it. So I would say probably the weaknesses is,
Matt (42:06.847)
Yeah.
Matt (42:19.369)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (42:33.752)
For me, who pays attention, I don't have any idea what one single shoe of their trail shoe looks like or what it does.
Matt (42:38.975)
Yeah, that's right. I think there's work to be done there. I totally agree. Yeah. I'm sort of scab. I want to check that out next week at TRE. But yeah, I knew their trail shoes years ago. Well, of course, the Minimus line that they had with Tony or with Anton. But then they also had like when they sponsored Leadville, had a, was it 12? MT-1210 or something. I might be getting that wrong. It's been a while.
Josh (42:47.52)
yeah, that'll be fun.
Josh (42:52.098)
Hmm.
Josh (42:59.63)
my gosh, yeah.
Josh (43:07.886)
Okay.
Matt (43:08.745)
But they had like a Leadville branded shoe at one point. And they did some of that years ago, yeah.
Josh (43:12.464)
yeah. With Anton, was that the shoe, like in some of old documentaries I saw of him, that he would shave the heel of a shoe and then they ended up making for him what he was trying to recreate?
Matt (43:22.67)
Well, yeah, that's right. He worked on a lot of product design with them on the, really the whole Minimus line, the MT-10s and all these really cool old shoes that were, that was kind of when I was getting into the sport and I was geeked out on all that. was really fun.
Josh (43:27.128)
Okay.
Josh (43:38.53)
Man, yeah, that's a good call. mean, even just by the fact that I'm smiling thinking about New Balance says everything about a solid brand, like they've nailed that. I mean, the Made in USA piece is, you know, makes me proud to say, you know, you don't have to make it there. That's fine if you don't, but they've that has been a value of theirs and they've done it. you know, it's reflected, it was reflected in the price point. But now all the price points have caught up with with their price points on some of their stuff. But, man, yeah, that's a good call. It just feels good to think about them. Yeah.
Matt (43:43.475)
Yeah, that's right.
Matt (43:48.724)
Yep.
Matt (43:53.832)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (43:59.271)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt (44:04.639)
They do a lot right, right? They do a lot, yeah, they do a lot really well. So if there's a little bit of momentum moving into trail, I'm excited to see that. The other one I had was On. I think they do a lot right, of course, right? Their numbers are absolutely killing it. From a trail point of view though, I wanna see a little bit, I wanna see more product. Not really, yeah, I think that's just kind of missing, but they do so much well. They're a really distinct brand, right? You can really see On's marketing when you.
Josh (44:11.391)
Yeah, very cool.
Josh (44:25.067)
Yep.
Matt (44:34.035)
kind of close your eyes and it's removed from the product. Their athlete team is great. Shout out to David Kilgore who does an outstanding job managing their athletes. think he's kind of a superstar over there that is in the sport, right? It is in it, has that presence, is at the events. He's running seven marathons, seven days, seven continents right now, which is really like, he's just in it. So that is, goes a long way. Yeah. Yeah. So on also just killing it.
Josh (44:36.395)
Yeah.
Josh (44:40.786)
yeah.
Josh (44:47.96)
Yeah.
Josh (44:55.145)
interesting.
Okay, I think, okay, I love the Cirque series, the races, the really cool and on was their sponsor for seven years, they just switched to La Sportiva. But I thought on sponsored Cirque before. I mean, I feel like that was like a paving the way sort of move for them rather than like, we're already established that they were trying, I thought that was just really interesting move to see them on it because it
Matt (45:07.795)
Yeah, really cool. Right, have events.
Matt (45:14.077)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (45:28.918)
I didn't associate them with trail, especially those really difficult, you know, six to nine mile races. I was really surprised by that. So I thought it was really cool to see them get in that now, you know, they're gone off to do one thing. Do you have any idea the future of on and trail?
Matt (45:33.279)
Mm-hmm.
It's true.
Matt (45:46.129)
I don't, I don't really, I don't really have any insight there. I'll be meeting with them at TRE. So I hope that ask some of those questions. Yeah. I'm excited to learn about that. Cause I think they, I think they do have more ambitions there than we've seen so far. So, yeah, I'm excited to learn about it, but yeah, at the moment I'd be, I'd be just throwing, I'd just be spit balling.
Josh (45:49.207)
Yeah.
yeah? Okay.
Yeah.
Josh (46:00.299)
Yeah.
Josh (46:05.056)
Yeah, is I can't think of her last name, Allie. She's like sub ultra or maybe like 50K specialist. Gosh, is that it? Does she run for on at some point?
Matt (46:15.902)
McLaughlin?
Matt (46:19.612)
for Hoka and let's try my different people.
Josh (46:21.698)
Maybe. I hate that. can't think I can. can see it. She always has her dogs at the finish line. Was she never with on? OK, OK, OK. Well, then I'm just off. And that's that's their fault. That's bad branding.
Matt (46:26.195)
Yeah, that's Ali. Yeah. Yeah. No, not that I ever knew of. She's with Hoka. Yeah.
Matt (46:36.255)
Yeah, that's okay. That's okay. The last one I want to bring up that is sort of intriguing for me, I to see what you think, is D'adora. I think D'adora is, and maybe I'm partial here, I played soccer all growing up as a kid. So I have this like super fond nostalgia for D'adora.
Josh (46:51.188)
Okay, that's where I was gonna go. Yep.
Josh (46:57.673)
I love D'adora. Yeah.
Matt (47:00.497)
Yeah, I think they're a really cool product. They have a lot of heritage and a lot of story there. It has the whole Italian thing going on, which is sort of like romantic, but also very product oriented, right? When you think of like Italian car brands or Italian fashion brands that they can sort of align with. I know they're doing a lot of product work. know they've hired, at least in the States here, some new people to try to grow the brand. I'm excited to see where...
Josh (47:08.716)
Yes.
Josh (47:22.158)
Hmm.
Matt (47:28.659)
where D'Adora goes, think there's a lot of potential there too. That's a cool brand.
Josh (47:31.882)
Yeah. How old are you? Okay, I'm 41. My brother played soccer. We lived in Dallas, Fort Worth area. Great, great soccer out there. D'Adora was, know, Umbro D'Adora, there was, know, like these brands that you had to have on in the what the late 80s, early 90s.
Matt (47:34.355)
I'm 43.
Matt (47:40.915)
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Matt (47:49.454)
yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
Josh (47:55.01)
But when I think of, saw D'Adora, I saw Believe in the Run post something about their road shoes or whatever. And like, I didn't even care. You know, it's a pure, to me, and this is maybe unfortunate for what they're trying to accomplish, if they're trying to truly compete. They're a nostalgia brand. You know, they're like an Urban Outfitters nostalgia thing to me. And I would get them just because I have only fond memories of them. So they're coming, if they're entering in and trying to make a serious play, they're at a very good starting line with already having that.
Matt (47:59.155)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt (48:06.057)
for.
Matt (48:11.855)
Sure.
Matt (48:23.899)
I agree. mean, like you talked about with the Solomons, how you just, kind of wanted them anyway. I think you have a little bit of that mindset, right? When you see Diodora on the shoe wall and they should play that up for sure. Cause that would be an advantage. Yeah. So yeah, that's a, that one was kind of my wild card I wanted to throw in at the end that you don't hear thrown around all the time, but I think that's a cool brand.
Josh (48:28.535)
Yeah.
Josh (48:33.056)
Yeah. that's fun. Yeah.
Josh (48:42.619)
Yeah, I like it. Yeah, makes me want to pay attention. So are they going to be at the TRE? Okay. Great.
Matt (48:48.383)
Yes, they are. we'll be, yeah, I'll be digging a little bit there. I want to do a, I want to do an audio post at TRE sort of like a, I don't know, reportage type story. A little bit like, you know, like the New York Times and some of these other podcasts do this where they're kind of like at an event and they're like talking into the mic, but then like, then you also hear the live audio where they interview somebody and they kind of weave it all together, like like a audio film.
Josh (48:59.13)
yeah. Yes. Are you gonna do it?
Josh (49:08.204)
Yes.
Josh (49:16.652)
Yep. Please do. Yes.
Matt (49:17.244)
I'm intrigued by that format. So I might try to put something like, that might not be perfect to be my first go around at it, but I might try to put something like that together.
Josh (49:23.894)
Yeah. man. Yeah. I think it'd a lot of interesting stuff and okay. So speaking of the nostalgia of D'Adora, as we get closer to landing the plane here, I want to get your take on this because I think my answer to this question, which I put in the text brings back some fondness, but what was their brand that you thought was just doing great and was going to make it and keep going. And they've been gone for a while and we'd be surprised to hear their name even right now.
Matt (49:29.993)
Yeah, OK.
Matt (49:49.741)
by far tops on that list is Montreal. Montreal was like total original trail running. you know, when jerk was smashing at Western States, he was like a Brooks guy, right? But Montreal had like the team and then they were bought by Columbia and I've just, yeah, just like, yeah, mean like Columbia is sitting on that and
Josh (49:53.819)
okay. Early. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (50:08.861)
that's what was gonna say. Yeah, the property of Columbia.
Matt (50:17.029)
have done virtually nothing with that. What a cool, totally original, awesome trail running brand that is just not around. I'm sure they still own the IP for that brand and I'd love to see that. That'd be cool.
Josh (50:23.539)
and
Josh (50:28.023)
Yeah.
Josh (50:32.556)
Yeah, I think, know, what they say, like, at least when I was a kid, I had heard that a car is considered vintage when it's 25 years old or older or something like that. You know, they're getting to that point where to bring back a Montreal shoe would be like like bringing back an old Corvette or something like that just for fun. Like nostalgia would be cool. Yeah.
Matt (50:47.199)
Thank
Matt (50:50.791)
It'd be so cool, right? I mean, I know Columbia makes some trail rank shoes. think I couldn't name any of them. I don't know if any of them are, if anyone really wears them. But man, if they brought Montreux, like it's like a premium brand and just really made them like all the like really high end trail shoes. mean, Columbia is a pretty big brand. they just, could really, you could really, I think differentiate them from Columbia and make them their own thing that you could.
Josh (50:58.765)
Yeah.
Josh (51:08.12)
Yeah, and got Scott Jerrick on board and Hal Kerner.
Josh (51:18.626)
Yeah.
Matt (51:20.281)
just get a lot of traction in their sport trail running with, it'd be really cool to see.
Josh (51:24.396)
Yeah, that'd be fun. Mine is Pearl Azumi. just because, I mean, I think of like, I can even see the picture in my mind, I can't remember who else in it other than Dylan Bowman, but there's other notables in that, you know, from that team. And it's like a relic.
Matt (51:29.277)
Yeah, totally.
Matt (51:38.655)
There were a lot of people. were sort of a starter team. So my friend Scott Heime was the manager for the athlete team for a while. And he was signing, he was signed Dylan, he signed Tim Olson, he signed Casey Lictai. He signed a bunch of people that then would go on to bigger contracts with bigger brands, but was, yeah, I don't know, is the feeder team the right word? They were just that,
Josh (51:49.548)
Okay.
Josh (51:55.799)
Yeah.
my gosh.
Josh (52:07.669)
Maybe.
Matt (52:08.413)
team that was really identifying people early from an athlete point of view. yeah, and the product was amazing at the time. And ones and twos and threes, all those.
Josh (52:12.908)
Yeah. Yeah.
Hmm, I think Do you know so death March running Cody at death March he was at a I think he was at Pearl Azumi Yeah, random. Okay
Matt (52:23.965)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, Cody Riley. Yeah
He was at Pearlsummit. Yep. He was definitely at Pearlsummit. Yeah. Cause their office is right down the street. I live in Louisville, right outside of Boulder. And that's where Pearlsummit's office was. They have a super nice building here, right on the hill, right on the trail. It's a really good spot. but yeah, of course they're really into cycling as well. Right. And I think that they made really premium products, but had a bit of a branding connotation in cycling too.
Josh (52:36.502)
Really? Okay.
Josh (52:43.022)
Hmm.
Josh (52:50.061)
Yeah.
Josh (52:54.058)
Yeah. Okay, I'd say the way that you talk about brands is from like a true enjoyment of it, you know? And so when you are then starting your own, do you feel like, with Haute Tire Sportif, can you see it with as much clarity as you could, let's say, if Altra was hiring you to consult? You know what I mean? Like when it's your own brand, can you build it?
Matt (53:02.493)
That's fun.
Matt (53:07.017)
Yes.
Matt (53:19.857)
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
Josh (53:23.356)
Is it harder to build it? What are you experiencing right now?
Matt (53:26.427)
it is only harder to build it because I'm building it from nothing. And so you're defining the brand and yeah, it's Artur Sportif. It's defining the brand from nothing and doing it with no resources, right? When you're starting out. that's the challenge. But I'm starting to feel that as I do more things, it like snowballs a little bit and it starts to...
Josh (53:31.085)
Yeah.
Josh (53:44.353)
Yeah.
Matt (53:54.099)
become easier for me the more I, know, with every product that I'm putting out or every film that I'm making, it's defining it more clearly in my head as I'm going. And it's, yeah, there's a bit of a snowball effect there, but I view it as sort of a lab for me to play and try things based on what I'm learning, what I'm talking about, what I'm seeing going well or not well.
Josh (54:13.164)
Yeah.
Matt (54:20.551)
And then just kind of adapting what I'm interested in to creating this persona of a brand for myself. it's a lot of fun.
Josh (54:30.316)
Yeah, I think since we have somewhat of an overlap on the product is not in our, I don't know, for me, not in my core competency. Do you find it hard to even think about the actual product itself sometimes? And you're so consumed with the storytelling and all of that sort of stuff. Are you feeling like pretty balanced in your approach?
Matt (54:38.175)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (54:49.244)
So no, like I actually really enjoy the product, but I'm coming at it from like a lifestyle product point of view. I'm not trying to make a performance product. I think that's hard and expensive and takes a lot of time if you're just starting a brand. I think so I think lifestyle is a lot sort of easier in that from that angle, but it also is just far more interesting to me. So I want to try to make a premium nice product. Like the shirt I have on like this.
Josh (54:52.087)
Okay.
Yeah. Okay.
Josh (55:03.832)
Yeah.
Matt (55:17.535)
385 gram cotton. Like it's really like nice and will hopefully last a while. It's not just like the cheapest cotton shirt and therefore it's not the cheapest to buy as well. But so no, I'm really enjoying product and that's been somewhere for me. I always love learning about things. So I've learned so much about making product and working with factories overseas and tech packs, which I'm terrible at, but like just learning all of this is really, really
Josh (55:21.378)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (55:28.526)
sure.
Josh (55:40.302)
Mmm.
Josh (55:43.945)
Hahaha.
Matt (55:47.551)
really a fun time for me. so yeah, no, I really enjoy the product.
Josh (55:52.64)
After you get out more documentaries and do more of the stuff that's in your head, what do you hope that people are going to say about what you're building at Otero Sportif, you know, in the same way that we've been doing with all these other brands? What do you hope there's two other guys sitting here talking about it? What do you hope they think? What lives in their mind?
Matt (56:02.217)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep. Yep.
Matt (56:12.743)
So this is where I started from. mean, I didn't know anything, but I knew this. When you're at a race or when you're out on a trail, there's a magic component to this sport that has absolutely nothing to do with performance. And you leave a hundred mile race and say you ran the race and you're destroyed, right? But like mentally you feel so energized.
by the community, by the stories, by the support from people that you take that intangible sort of spirit of it away. And I want the brand to stand for that. I want the brand to mean that just in that intangible magic of running, which is a phrase I write about a lot with the brand is like the magic of running. And I want it to really stand for that. It's not performance oriented at all. Anyone can run and anyone can experience this, whether you're
Josh (57:01.944)
Yes.
Matt (57:10.015)
at the front of the pack or the back of the pack. think it connects everybody within the sport. And yeah, I think it's hard for a lot of performance brands to tell that story. I think a lifestyle brand can tell that story a bit better without having to talk about our shoe being the fastest or whatever. So yeah, that's the story of the brand that I'm trying to communicate through films and then personify through product. I've listened to a lot of interviews and read a lot of articles with Breeze.
Josh (57:11.98)
Yeah.
Josh (57:24.546)
Yeah, right.
Matt (57:38.153)
Partus from Satisfy and he talks about the product being the merch from the concert and that is so powerful for me. So I want, yeah, I really want the product to be the merch from that concert to represent that story and that experience.
Josh (57:42.977)
Yeah.
Josh (57:50.926)
I love it. Yeah, man, that's great. Well, I look forward to seeing what comes of it. I look forward to listening to the podcast wherever you choose to release your TRE experience next week.
Matt (58:02.151)
Yeah, hopefully that'll be on my my sub stack. I've got to see how quickly I can get it out. The other thing to watch out for though is through our tour sportif. I have another film coming out. It looks like next Friday. That's the first I've I've told anybody that publicly. I was hoping to get it out this Friday, which would be tomorrow and I'm not going to make it. So I think I think it'll be next Friday. But I'm telling the story of Gina Lucrezzi and Buena Vista, Colorado, who of course started started Trail Sisters.
Josh (58:13.111)
wow, that's fast. Okay, okay.
Josh (58:24.039)
Okay.
Josh (58:28.178)
okay.
Matt (58:30.671)
She ran for, she was so inspired by the impact that she was able to have at, know, Trail Sisters advocating for women in the sport that she got involved in local government in Buena Vista and just ran for County Commissioner of Chaffey County. And so I, yeah, so I followed her and made a short film about that story. And it's really, really cool to see someone in our sport, you know, kind of just extending the inspiration that they caught in running.
Josh (58:36.416)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hmm. Yep.
Josh (58:49.005)
Yeah.
Matt (58:59.652)
to the wider world is really, really awesome. So it's a great story.
Josh (58:59.93)
Yeah. Well, I have a lot of fond memories in Buena Vista, Colorado. It's a phenomenal area, so that's cool. Yeah. Well, man, thanks for joining me today. I'll make sure and link everything up in the show notes and yeah, let's do it again. All right, see you.
Matt (59:07.037)
It's a great place. It's a great place. The whole valley slide and all of it is really, really great place. Yeah.
Matt (59:17.821)
Appreciate it. We'll talk soon. Thanks.
