Ep107 • Bad Runners Take: How trail running could own thanksgiving.
Trail running has lost some of its fun, and in this engaging discussion, Josh Rosenthal and his guest delve into the need for the sport to embrace playfulness and creativity.
They explore the contrast between how mainstream sports leverage holiday seasons to engage fans, while trail running often becomes quiet during the same periods.
The conversation highlights the importance of celebrating achievements, big or small, such as recognizing a 50-mile run even if it falls short of the ultimate goal. They also address the evolving landscape of running technology and community engagement, discussing how changes in platforms like Strava impact the runner's experience.
Ultimately, the duo emphasizes the need for trail running to recapture its spirit and connect with a broader audience through innovative ideas and a focus on enjoyment.
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In a lively discussion about the state of trail running, the episode explores how the sport has shifted over the years, with hosts Josh Rosenthal and his guest expressing a desire to bring back the fun and excitement that once defined the community. They reflect on the current quieter atmosphere in trail running compared to other sports, particularly during holidays when major leagues like the NFL and NBA capture audiences with engaging events. The hosts suggest that trail running could benefit from similar strategies, proposing ideas for festive races or events that celebrate the sport and encourage participation from both seasoned runners and newcomers alike.
The conversation also delves into themes of gratitude and reflection, with the hosts sharing personal anecdotes about their own running journeys throughout the year. They highlight the importance of community in trail running, emphasizing how local races foster connections and create supportive environments for all participants. The discussion brings attention to events like the Devil's Gulch 150, which exemplify the familial atmosphere in trail running and the joy of shared experiences. Additionally, they touch upon an exciting new project focused on democratizing run clubs through an app, showcasing how technology can enhance connectivity within the running community.
As the episode wraps up, the hosts encourage listeners to reflect on their experiences in trail running and to consider how they can contribute to revitalizing the sport. They emphasize that trail running is not just about competition but about building connections and celebrating achievements, no matter the distance or pace. This closing sentiment serves as a reminder for the audience to engage with the community, share their stories, and find joy in the journey, ultimately aiming to inspire a resurgence of fun and connection in trail running.
Takeaways:
Trail running has lost some of its playful spirit, as highlighted in the discussion.
The idea of normalizing DNF (Did Not Finish) could change how runners approach races.
Creating community events around holidays could enhance engagement in the trail running scene.
There's a vision for a fun, engaging content series to celebrate trail running's joy.
The potential for combining fun and competitive spirit in ultra events is exciting.
The importance of celebrating distances completed, rather than focusing solely on finishing goals.
Transcript:
Josh (00:00.942)
All right, back with another Bad Runners take with my dude, Brian Wolf Runner Peterson coming to you from Arizona. I'm in France. And as you listen to this, you are possibly on a road trip. You're moving or you're moving about the country somewhere in the world. You're driving. Maybe you're on a holiday run. And so today in honor of the holiday, at least for you Americans, we're talking Thanksgiving, we're talking thankful, we're talking about an angle on trail running that other sports do that
that fur running currently doesn't do that we think could be cool if they did. And for those of you around the world who don't celebrate Thanksgiving like France, because know, Thursday, Thanksgiving in France is just a school day for my kids. So a lot of you, this is just another episode coming out on a Friday. Okay, I'm going to tee up the question, Brian, and then you then you put, you know, I'll give you the frame and you build the house around it. I love this. You said
Wolfie (00:43.888)
Yeah.
Josh (01:00.502)
Our sport goes dark at a time when a lot of other professional sports turn up the volume and maybe a lot too, but you know, of the four of the big four to really turn up the volume. We've got NFL and NBA going big for the holidays and trail running gets quiet. There's many arguments I think that could be made for trial running getting louder or getting quieter. But currently what we do is we get quieter and there's not a lot going on in the world of trail. And so today we look at.
NFL, NBA, leveraging the eyes and ears of people who are laying around enjoying their time with their family. And so they put it on display. How am I doing? Am I on the right path with what's on your mind?
Wolfie (01:42.714)
Yeah, spot on, man. yeah, I mean, being a big sports guy growing up, you always kind of, you know, mark the calendar. You knew the traditions, right? The NFL Thanksgiving Day game with John Madden, you know, they had the Turducken, you know, the big turkey leg. Yeah, man. mean, see what I mean? Like you don't even have to say much of anything and everybody kind of knows and like remembers exactly, you know, you had the Lions always losing and, know, and then you go to
Josh (01:55.288)
The turkey, Or like the six-legged turkey thing, yeah.
and smiles. Yep.
Josh (02:08.174)
It's America at its best.
Wolfie (02:10.47)
Then you go to Christmas and it seems like, the NBA's kind of really like owned the Christmas holiday game. You you typically have like Boston versus Lakers on Christmas day. And yeah, I mean, it just kind of complements the holiday and becomes a tradition built around it for sports and, you know, building more fans throughout the season. So it just got me thinking like, you know, could we have something like that? You know, do we have the ambition and imagination to...
Josh (02:19.106)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wolfie (02:37.542)
create something within trail and if we did what would it look like? yeah, I this is just a fun spitball episode to throw ideas out. And I got to thinking to throw in another sport as comparison, know, anybody that remembers, you know, NASCAR driving days like in the nineties with like Earnhardt and everything, they had a IROC race, which was a international race of champions.
Josh (02:58.978)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (03:02.549)
Yeah.
Wolfie (03:04.39)
And the whole thing was here was that like it was on an oval track. They all drove the same Camaro. They had, you know, an IROC version, again, International Race of Champions. But this wasn't just NASCAR drivers. This was Indy drivers, Formula One and NASCAR. So you had guys who were competing across different race series coming together and they kind of neutralized everybody's advantage and put them in the exact same stock car.
It was super cool, right? So like, why couldn't we kind of have around a holiday or something, the same kind of vibe. You could have people from the sub ultra scene racing against, you know, people in the hundred mile scene on some type of course that kind of compliments both of their suits. And it would just be fun. I mean, it wouldn't be for anybody's legacy, but it would be something to give back to the fans. So what do you think? How would you play that out?
Josh (03:50.317)
Yes.
Josh (03:54.728)
All right, I gotta catch up with you. And the, how do I say this? Everything that you just said is exactly why we should have something for our sport on that day because everything that you brought up, there's some level of fondness that endears me more to the sport. Cowboys fan growing up, I came by it honestly, I lived in Fort Worth. I'm not like these Cowboys fans who've never been there.
Wolfie (04:08.571)
Yes.
Josh (04:21.998)
So I loved the Cowboys and so Thanksgiving Day meant I got to see them start to finish. And what made me feel special as a Cowboys fan is that it didn't matter who the Cowboys were playing. It was the Cowboys' day. so whoever, then it could be a different opponent. It could be the 49ers, the Packers. There was some level of predictability, but I look back on it with fondness. IROC.
to be honest with you, my fondness for that is, do you remember that song, Teenage Dirtbag? That's the first time I ever heard of an iRock because, he drives an iRock, you know? And like in the video, it shows the iRock or whatever. You're kidding. Was it in good shape?
Wolfie (04:55.715)
Yeah.
Wolfie (05:06.428)
Right. That was my first car. It was a 1989 Chevy Iroq. Yeah.
Not when I got it, but yeah, we put a little bit of elbow grease into it and got it looking pretty killer for a 17 year old in high school,
Josh (05:17.774)
Dude, my gosh.
Did you have a mullet?
Wolfie (05:24.26)
No mullet at the time, no. was frosted spikes, you your typical late nineties, 2000, you know, Orange County guy. Yeah, exactly. Right.
Josh (05:25.601)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah. Listening to Smash Mouth. Dude, that's incredible having Irock. I would love, I mean, so I also get the other end of it. Like, hey, it's the holiday, it's nice, know, MLB, those players, they get to have holidays with their families. That's nice. But at the same time, if you're a professional, you know, that's somewhat just how it goes. Yeah.
Wolfie (05:52.432)
Here's the beauty of it. It doesn't have to be live. They could record it and package it in a way that you can actually just debut and watch it live in a live chat environment. So you still get the community of the live chat. The athletes aren't having to sacrifice family time and it looks polished. And it's something that you could share with your family members who aren't running fans in a 45 minute, know, hey, check this out. Let's get together and watch this after you guys are all, you know, tired from the turkey and pie. And I don't think it has to be live.
Josh (06:20.898)
I'm sold. I think that's absolutely brilliant. And so with that, you know, you open yourself up to these baller production companies. And I think we have baller production within Trail Running. In terms of post post event, we have baller production. Shout out to Drew Darby, Billy Yang, obviously. It's our it's our in sport coverage that's that is growing is not there yet.
And every year it's getting better. We've acknowledged that, but it's not there yet. So if post is where we shine as a sport, you know, how do we get drew? How do we get Billy? How do we get my dude Ben who does my documentaries? How do we get them to do a major Thanksgiving day release? I think that would be a really fun, 2025 goal for anybody to say, Hey, what if we, what if those of you who don't like those, those main sports, what if we gave you something two hours that day? That's like, we're going to live stream it at
230 Central time pre or post whenever you eat you're worn out and you're gonna get the documentary of the year the coverage of the year you establish the storylines early on of who who of your favorite of your big favorite races your UT and be your Western States and you somehow Thread that through to one like magnum opus for the year. I don't know. mean I do I could imagine where the money comes from I don't necessarily know off the top of my head
because that'll be expensive and pricey, but what a gift to humanity to drop it in that way. I love that. And if it's live with the chats and stuff, could probably, I mean, you would dominate there because like you said, it's so quiet. You could own the sport that day.
Wolfie (07:52.868)
Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. Like you said it.
Wolfie (08:05.082)
You could, yeah. And I think it would get good adoption. Everybody would kind of get excited about it because you could market it a couple of weeks beforehand. Just like Golden Trail Series does really well with marketing their drops and their recap stories. I don't know. Mountain Outpost or Out and Out House, they've got all the content. They do all the live streams for all these big races throughout the year. yeah, they could easily...
Josh (08:16.014)
Yeah, yes.
Josh (08:22.21)
Josh (08:32.696)
Yeah.
Wolfie (08:34.916)
curate something, you know, if it wasn't the budget or the scheduling to come together for this event, like they could still put together a year end review of what they've done across these golden ticket races and Western and I mean, they're just sitting on a landline of content, you know.
Josh (08:49.205)
I'm into it. Yes. Yeah. you know, especially if it's this mutually agreed upon thing we're going to try. And if there's money involved, you can figure out licensing. if it's like, hey, you know, Mountain Outpost, you've got X content that we need. This production company has this content. we'll figure out the licensing, we'll figure out the paperwork. But let's go, let's grab the best of the best and have that day as like our own parade. This is our parade that day. This is our Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.
and let's get a million people on this thing. I think we could do it.
Wolfie (09:18.417)
Yep.
Wolfie (09:22.106)
Yeah. just, and it would be, you know, again, priorities would be fun and, and, and fondness and the fans, right? Like the three F's basically, like you would do things that would sacrifice the performance of the athlete for the product, right? Like we would, we would actually, you know, have them with live microphones, you know, so you could hear them, you know, in and out, right? Like it would be the environment that you could kind of beta test.
things for future live streams and see because it's, know, again, we're not, we're not trying to put on like, it's not like it's, yeah, it's the performance isn't what matters. just for the fondness and the connection to it. So you could do things that would be super fun.
Josh (10:02.466)
I almost hate that we're having this discussion publicly because I want to do all this. okay, so, you know, the NFL microphone, the candid whatever, you know, like that they put on a player for a week or even a season or, you know, on some of those like receiver or quarterback Netflix documentaries, like you have them in game. You know how amazing it would be to hear what Jim is saying? Not even at the aid station because we can kind of we have some frame of reference for that.
But if we could hear like his mile 38 discussion halfway between aid stations, what does he talk out loud? Does he say stuff or they pick up Pacers? I don't think there's too much like strategy going on. There's not discussion that's like proprietary or, you know, there's not, it's not like a huddle, but if we could get like even just some audio on that, think people would, whoa, they would love that. mean, the, the challenge would be.
You know, finding the lightest lightest weight, most non intrusive microphone possible. That to me would be, I would be glued if someone, someone would have to go through 13 hours, 15 hours of stuff to find it, chop it up into four minutes. That's the best, most interesting format. Here's, here's Jim. This is what he said the entire, he spoke for four minutes total for an entire race. That would be content that I would get so pumped on.
Wolfie (11:04.817)
Right.
Wolfie (11:25.968)
Yup. And like it's the desire, the appetite for it is there because when you think about like the, North face 50 hocks versus Zach Miller, Jamil dropped like the, the unedited raw content when like all you hear is just Zach, like, you know, huffing and puffing. Like you don't have to hear anything to get the chills and want to go out and run intervals up a hill because you're watching and hearing it. Right. And like,
Josh (11:37.336)
Yeah.
Josh (11:44.44)
Huffing. Yeah.
Yeah.
Wolfie (11:54.096)
You've got him looking over his shoulder and he's asking Billy, how far back is he? Like, again, these are just, yeah, these are moments that stick with you and last. Like, I can't imagine how much good like Pacer content there is, right? Cause I imagine these Pacers have some of the best motivational speeches out there for their athlete, you know, constantly lifting them up like they're, like they're Rocky in the corner, right? Like giving them the, the win one for the Gimper speech on the trail. So I want to hear what the Pacers say too, to talk up their athlete.
Josh (11:54.158)
Mmm.
Josh (12:03.714)
Okay.
Josh (12:11.665)
my gosh.
Josh (12:17.804)
Yeah.
Josh (12:24.748)
Wow. Okay. Let's take it up a notch. What if we were able to, let's say we got this content and it's this stuff, cause you're exactly right. It's the Pacers. So not every runner has a Pacer, but let's say they do. So I guess you couldn't do it at UTMB. That's fine. They get all the coverage. You've got the Pacer carrying the mic. You're getting these epic, get you pumped speeches. And so we drop into whoever wants to do it.
I bet we could get 25 cities to do this, where you have a group that watches it together, and then you have the an official Turkey Trot right after that. Maybe year one is Turkey Trot without that, so we can have like a baseline to assess how pumped it gets people. And then year two, it's do this coverage and now go same people go run that same Turkey Trot and see if I mean, I bet they're running like 1.25 X last year's times because you'd be so pumped.
Wolfie (13:04.411)
Right.
Wolfie (13:11.834)
Right.
Josh (13:23.48)
I mean, if you're getting those speeches and if you're getting those, like the huffing and puffing stuff, I know that I'm getting pumped while watching it, knowing I'm about to go run a 5K where I can just redline or a 10K where I can just redline. That would be so motivating and it'd be fun. Then like talk about like a community engagement on steroids. And then you've got more money available to make the great documentary because now you're activating community around the world.
Wolfie (13:49.752)
Absolutely. Yep. I think, yeah. And I think we're kind of touching around like the main issue here is that like, I think trail running's lost some of its fun, some of its playfulness, right? Like I think in an effort, like for what, for what Debo is doing with Free Trail and, you know, the other podcasters that, you know, carry a large platform and are doing, you know, more commentary spaces or athlete interviews, like they kind of
Josh (13:51.318)
I would do that.
Josh (14:01.538)
Yes. Yes.
Wolfie (14:17.05)
moved away from like the Bill Yang and like the, you know, the Trail Runner Nation, like these kind of like podcasts, right? And they tried to present themselves as ESPN, right? Like they always wanted to be elevated, right? More polished or professional, right? Like, and I think they lost a lot of the fun aspect that made fans connect to the content from like the previous generation of media. Like...
Josh (14:19.746)
Yeah.
Wolfie (14:42.692)
It reminds me of like when Jamil came up, right? Like his channel on YouTube got big because he was doing like Casey Neistat style daily vlogs when he was training for Barclay. And then him and him and him and what was his name? Schuster, the his black friend that he would always go out and do those like eating challenges with like the drop bag challenge. You know what I mean? Like Jamil would, you know, were okay. So
Josh (14:49.449)
Yeah. Yep.
Josh (15:07.348)
I kind of remember that.
Wolfie (15:11.388)
They would do these like events where, you know, Aerovipo would have all these drop bags that nobody would claim. And so they would go out, just grab random drop bags and they would start eating whatever was in the drop bag. You know what I mean? Like, so they would be forced to consume whatever gels or food, right? So they would do these fun, yeah, fun jackass style challenges that were like hilarious, right? Or they would make the most hideous concocted goo.
Josh (15:17.134)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (15:27.81)
That's, yeah. that's.
Josh (15:32.994)
Yes.
Wolfie (15:39.184)
formula that they could out of these goose that got left behind and then they would go run up a mountain here and eat the gels and try not to puke. So we've lost all the fun. It's just now a bunch of interviews.
Josh (15:48.312)
That's good. Yeah.
Was Jamil the one doing the, yeah, okay. Don't let me deviate too far from that, because I got to get back to that. But I am curious, was Jamil the one, I recall a fun video where someone was going after Jim Walmsley's, across Arizona, would be traveling around trying to take his segments off of Strava. Does that sound familiar? I remember that being really fun.
Wolfie (16:13.54)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They would do that. Yeah. And they did one one time around actually now that I remember they did one around Christmas and they dressed up as Santa Claus and they were running up and down. think it might've been Pemberton or one of the local trail heads down here in Phoenix and stuff. But yeah, they were, they were targeting specific Walmsley segments where like they could go all out for like 0.6 miles. Whereas it was like Jim getting the segment and like a 16 mile trail run. So it was fun. You know, they were poaching.
his segments and having fun with it and stuff.
Josh (16:47.886)
Okay, and you are right. The fun is missing.
Wolfie (16:50.618)
We've lost the fun.
Wolfie (16:54.596)
It's not missing entirely. It's just now it's a little bit adjacent to trail. think what Matt, what Matt Johnson is doing and you know, with some of these other, you know, hybrid athletes, you know, I said the H word, so forgive me for that, but some of these hybrid athletes are influencers. They're still having the fun and they're reaping the benefits of a greater platform and audience. So there's some correlation.
Josh (17:07.31)
Right. Yeah.
Josh (17:15.815)
Yeah, I mean, okay, where I would say what I mean by the fun is gone is that yes, you said it well, it's adjacent. It's not in the driver's seat. And I wanna think out loud about why it's not in the driver's seat anymore. it, did Jamil, who was in the driver's seat on some of that, Billy, who was in the driver's seat on some of that fun, but maybe Jamil Morso, was it just because the business got so
so big, the revenue got so much, our VIPA became so much and then, know, mountain outpost and then did he invest in Satisfye and all this sort of stuff. Like did all of that just get to the point where he was just a manager of a large enterprise, which is fine. Cause he, mean, no judgment, just observational. And then so, so the fun stuff, it became too risky or did he just lose the appetite? Did just lose the energy? All of those could be possible, but whatever it is, there's no one that is
in the in the old box. So you do well to say the hybrid athletes have are owning that they are much more fun than our our sacred trail personalities. Our sacred trail personalities seem to be delivering on the facts. I'm gonna say the facts. They're delivering on information. They're giving us their dispensing information that they think that people want.
or not even think that people want. They're dispensing information that people want. And that is the unsexy explanation I could ever give for something. Yes, dispensing information that people want. That's true. But man, as far as the turkey with six legs and the turducken and the like, we don't have those like things to grab onto right now.
Wolfie (19:08.89)
No, no. I think Jamil just eventually, this was probably like, geez, we're going on 2025 now. So this was like 2015 era. So this would have been like eight to 10 years ago. So yeah, I mean, we grow up, we get older, right? I think, yeah, I mean, his buddy moved away. So was probably something fun that he enjoyed doing with his friend, right? And it was kind of like, well, if it's not him, then I don't want to continue doing it just for the sake of doing it. It was sincerely something fun to do with him.
Josh (19:20.46)
Yeah. Totally.
Wolfie (19:39.118)
I think time just moved on and rather than tapping somebody on the shoulder and saying, Hey, we, this is still an important part of, Aravipa and everything. Let's keep the channel growing. Like it just kind of, it died with Jameel rather than having him anoint maybe somebody else within the Aravipa kingdom to take that place. know, yeah.
Josh (19:55.458)
to take that over, but there's a gap. I mean, I'll just throw this out there. There's something I'm working on that I wouldn't have, I would not have articulated this way before, but yes, this is what I'm doing. Cause I loved all that stuff. That stuff brought a ton of people into the sport. That stuff brought people like you and me into the sport. The version of content now brings really good
like I think is more attractive to the people who are trying to really professionalize the sport. So that dispensation of information is really attractive to that aspiring elite athlete or that person who's building the brand because they want to get in that. But the fun stuff is missing. That's one of the things I'm trying to build right now at a very high level called Robie house for Western states. It's essentially coverage. I've been saying it as what if David Letterman had a baby with Jackass and it was a non-elite runner?
Like I'm going to build this. I want to build this experience, launch it at Western States, but I hope to do it at a lot of different events in the future. But the idea is just that we go out and it, it, I wouldn't have said this way until you've said what you've said in this episode so far. It's simple. Just have fun. Like let's make sure that people see how much fun this is or people who already know how much fun it is. Give them another, just another thing to point out and say, this is fun.
Wolfie (21:17.904)
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, I'm excited for that. You've given me little cues on to what you're working on. So yeah, everybody keep your eyes open and I'm sure more to come on that as you've got, yeah.
Josh (21:23.118)
Yeah.
Yeah, should be good. Could be good.
Okay. Yeah.
Wolfie (21:31.15)
So yeah, think we're some good stuff here. I didn't know how excited we'd get about the opening topic. I knew it was one that I was excited about, but glad to see that you ripped off it and I felt a good thrill.
Josh (21:40.428)
Hahaha
Definitely, definitely love it. Okay, here's a thought and you take, if you can go this way if you want to, or you can counter with a different direction. Like looking at gratitude and thankfulness within the sport. I've got some thoughts and things that I'm thankful for within the sport and you can frame it and simply because it is Thanksgiving, we can frame it that way. You can frame it of just like stuff that you love within the sport, but.
Looking back at 2024, we're 11 12ths of the way there. Anything come to mind for you?
Wolfie (22:19.388)
thankful for this opportunity. Certainly been having the last, the last couple of weeks or months now that we've been doing, shared bad runners takes. So starting off organically, just with me messaging you these similar takes and, thoughts and in the messages and then invite me on. And yeah, I mean, I think we're, we're, we're building and growing this into something bigger and hopefully maybe even get a, Wolfies world segment in there in borders land on its own. So maybe in the future we'll see.
Josh (22:21.325)
Yeah.
Josh (22:24.834)
That's crazy. Yeah.
Josh (22:33.1)
Yeah.
Josh (22:36.941)
Yeah.
Josh (22:41.432)
Yeah.
Josh (22:45.582)
Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I'm to call that a commitment that we have something called Wolfie's World coming. The exact concept is still taking shape, but you will hear an episode before the end of the year, episode one of Wolfie's World before the end the year. I'm committing to it publicly. In the survey that you all took, and I hope I'm going to have it in the show notes too. I want to continue to learn. I want to get to a critical mass in the survey. I'm pretty close on stuff, but
You all like these episodes the most, which is pretty incredible. And that's men and women both sharing that. Well, actually a unique thing about every single woman who took that survey, every single one of them named Bad Runners Take as one of their top two favorite things about the podcast. So I like this because it's a... Yeah, I meant to say both of the women that took this.
Wolfie (23:35.932)
Was that just our wives that filled that out?
Josh (23:43.874)
So I like this, it's, I had the vision of wanting to talk about current events and have like a counter or I don't know, just a new take on things. But when you came in, it became like, it felt like this dog could hunt. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think I would have, I love this concept. I wouldn't have had the energy to put it together. like these topics each week are, these are essentially of.
Wolfie (24:02.544)
Right.
Josh (24:12.427)
of coming from your imagination and what you're paying attention to. You pay much, I don't say much closer attention, but the way that you consume the sport is unique and it feels like you, I don't know how you do it. You bring in information from so many different angles and distill it into like really interesting conversations.
Wolfie (24:31.726)
Absolutely. Yeah, I think the concept of badwinners take works best with two people because that's kind of how you would naturally talk in a bar, a barbershop or whatever your communal gathering is with your buddy, right? You riff off of things and you kind of laugh. then before you know it, the badwinner take got kind of carved into something that's actually a pretty damn good take half the time. So it works.
Josh (24:38.306)
Yeah.
Josh (24:41.838)
totally.
Josh (24:54.102)
Yeah, yeah, in the end, because we're singing out loud and like you say, because there's two of us and we're bouncing off each other. No, I completely agree with that. What's that?
Wolfie (25:01.626)
What do you think for 2024? What's been some of the highlights for you? Or you had a big move in your personal life, but within the sport, what do you got going on?
Josh (25:08.86)
So yeah, yeah.
yeah, you know, I mean, think on some levels, like this move to, to Paris has been really, really good that cause I can't get distracted. Ironically, it's allowed me to dream about what I'm trying to build within the sport of trail running without being distracted by the sport of trail running. If that makes sense. Like if I was in America, I would be training a lot more, running a lot more, trying to run more races, which sounds like it should be a good thing. But in some levels, the amount of time that I would give to that I've been.
giving to building Borderlands, to building the app Wilder, to dreaming up the race, the events that we have in Salt Lake City, getting this Billy Yang run together for January of next year. So, I mean, for me on that level, it's like, Paris is an extremely inspiring place and I'm taking all of that inspiration and it's all coming out in the form of like trying to build these things so that when we come back to America, it's like hit the ground running.
And I'm super excited for it. I would say one of the surprises of the year was just a high level of stoke for Cirque series getting to have Julian Carr on the podcast. like it's, mean, I think this year, one of the takeaways and spending through our conversations is I've gotten really excited about shorter distances. And I have also gotten excited about wanting to try to run faster. That's never really been the thing for me, but as I
Wolfie (26:19.74)
Mm.
Josh (26:37.814)
As we've talked about it and then having Jacob Pusey on the podcast and getting to talk about his take on road running this year, my imagination really in the last half year has opened up and gotten excited for running on the road and shorter distances. And what I like about that is that means it's, it's like, yes, trial running and ultra running. My heart is attached. I hope to run a hundred more hundred milers like that is a high value to me, but my imagination has been opened up for the entirety of the sport.
maybe even further than imagination, just my affinity for it, my respect for it, my love for it. And so I think that's one of the great surprises of this year that I wouldn't have seen coming. I would have thought I would have just been an old dirt bag trail guy for the rest of my life. But I feel excited at the thought of trying to run 830 miles at the Paris Marathon. That's a huge challenge for me to contemplate that across 26 miles. But I'm motivated by speed. I haven't been motivated by speed until we started having our conversations and looking at Golden Trail.
thinking circ and what I love about sir, being that, that special event series is just that it's a, it's a party that is fun. Cirque series is fun and that team makes it fun. And at the same time, there's elites that come out and destroy those six to nine mile courses. Yeah. So that's it for me. think one, or that's one of them for me, just a big imagination for this, this sport and, you know, wanting to bust down the gates.
Wolfie (27:47.963)
Right.
Josh (28:06.518)
And make sure, you know, get, all the gatekeepers out of the way and make sure that we are continuing to go forward and deeper into the sport and more people being welcome and, and more people loving road running who love trail and shorter distances and, you know, longer distances and everything.
Wolfie (28:20.988)
Yeah, yeah, that kind of actually teased me up for something that I'm grateful for. I wouldn't have anticipated it, but this will be the, this year will be the first year probably, since 2016 that I haven't ran an ultra distance race. and it happened organically, you know, I, I knew coming into this year that it was going to be kind of a, a more balanced year of family priorities and, and, you know, being
more involved in pouring some energy back into the house and some things that we've been putting off. So, but I fully expected to still be, you know, maybe running javelina or, know, some other. Aerobipa alter distance, whether it was a 50 K or 50 miler, but yeah, I mean, here we are middle November and didn't happen. there was a 50 mile. I was going to run here locally, but my wife, you know, found a, a fixer upper and RV trailer and bought it on the spot. the last couple of weeks just.
you know, gutting it, you know, at a breakneck pace. and she goes into her hobbies and her passions with the same kind of grandiose that we as ultra runners go into ours. And so I can't knock her for, you know, wanting to go from busted up trailer to, know, fully remodeled and in seven days and then take it to California for a weekend. And, know, I've never towed a car, a trailer before learned how to do anything. So I was just, you know,
Josh (29:29.772)
Yep.
Josh (29:39.342)
Yeah.
Wolfie (29:45.392)
drink it through the fire hose and, and yeah, I mean, all of that to say, it's nice to know that like, you don't have to run ultra distances. It's still very much identify as a trail runner, identify with the community of ultra runners. Like I know there's a lot of guys out there that reach out and it's like, they feel like when they're not running ultra distance or don't have a race signed up, like they feel not as authentic of, yeah, exactly. They feel lost. And just to speak to anybody out there, like, no, man, like I didn't run an ultra this year and like,
Josh (29:54.006)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (30:05.592)
feel lost.
Yep.
Wolfie (30:15.098)
I'm every bit as committed to the sport and the community and still running and still identify every bit of a trail runner, ultra runner, road runner, just as much as I did during my biggest volume years and everything else.
Josh (30:29.048)
Have you surprised yourself? Let me ask you this, on a scale of one to 10, how much do you mean that compared to how much are you just trying to speak it into existence? Meaning, do you legitimately feel that you are a part of the community, that this is you with going a whole year without running a race? Do you know what I mean? For me, I'd be saying it to try and speak it into the existence, because it's really hard for me here. But what about you?
Wolfie (30:51.899)
Yeah.
Wolfie (30:57.754)
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's sincere, you know, because I still got, cause what matters always most to me is just being able to run consistently. so I can still go out and run during the week. You know, I can still go out, you know, a couple of times a month and run on trails so I can get that sensation. Right. and, and, and it just showed that like, yeah, the races, you know, they are important to me, but they, at the end of the day don't matter nearly as much as being able to just train. So.
Josh (31:04.76)
Yeah.
Josh (31:13.229)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (31:26.146)
Yeah.
Wolfie (31:27.258)
Yeah, I mean, it's as sincere as the words coming out of my mouth. it was, it was something that, you know, looking back, it's not, not a difficult thing. It's not like I'm going to then try to emulate it next year. No, like next year, you know, I'm, I'm more fired up than ever to go run a race at an ultra distance, but if it doesn't happen, then I know it'll be okay.
Josh (31:42.605)
Yeah.
Josh (31:46.764)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, my final thing I'm thankful for, this year, mean, I just, I, my, my dude, Joshua Landvater did the classic, grand slam of ultra. And I just absolutely loved that that's still possible. And I think it's a relic and I can't imagine how many more people are going to be able to do it. He, he did,
He did the version of the Grand Slam that includes, know, Western States, Wasatch, Vermont, and the other one. But he didn't do Leadville. I mean, it's impossible to do the Grand Slam with Leadville unless you are a sponsored elite at this point. So him, I mean, he's a just he just finished his PhD in some form of psychology.
Wolfie (32:35.664)
Gotcha.
Josh (32:42.53)
So he's, you know, he's a relic. don't know how many more people are going to get to do it, but it was a blast to see like, you know, one of those hundred milers is still a active horse race. And so he's re he ran with horses and then he got to do, you know, he lives in Salt Lake. So he got to do Wasatch, but then to actually have, you know, pulled a lottery ticket and got to do Western States. That's a relic. And I hope to see more of those, but man, I doubt we're going to have much more of that on that particular grand slam. That's why the Rocky mountains slams there and all of that, but that was fun.
Wolfie (33:13.39)
Right. Like you said, yeah, the biggest hurdle of that one is just pure entry. Yeah.
Josh (33:18.016)
Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunate. okay. We, we now have a hotline and that hotline is run more six, four, nine, just like the old days of radio shows, you know, that had to have some clever way for you to remember it. But that used to mean something because we all had 10 key phones or rotary phones. I recall calling, 96.1 KSCS I think in Fort Worth to request Garth Brooks.
And they would have you remember it by word. So we're run more six four nine, but you can call seven eight six six six seven Wait, no, is that right? Yeah, seven eight six six six seven three six four nine That's run more six four nine and leave us a message you can text It's way less interesting to be honest because I don't want to read your text I want to hear your voice, but when you leave the message we are gonna play it like you leave the message and your comment belongs to me and we're gonna play it on the show and Give our feedback. Yeah
Wolfie (34:13.98)
You gotta sing it like a jingle, like the 8675309. You gotta come up with a cool, you're the king of little like riffs. You gotta come up with a cool.
Josh (34:17.224)
Of course, I will write a jingle for the phone number because I can never remember it outside of run more six four nine Okay, I don't know if I can get it by next week, but i'm gonna try real hard To have it by the time this episode airs if not Look for that soon I love that challenge. Okay, so Let's go for it You're gonna hear these for the first time. I've heard them to make sure that they're somewhat
reasonably appropriate, but I've tried to refrain from engaging with them and thinking through them too much. And you all are a part of an experiment here, but we want you to call them. We want you to call the number. We really want to engage with you in this way on air. So I'm going to play this and then Brian and I are going to think through it.
Josh (35:39.618)
I will say, okay, so that's Sam DeRegger partnering with me on Wilder. He's my head of product. I love that dude. I didn't ask him to do this, we do. Strava does have a problem, but bottom line, his question, and I think it's a good question. I think it's an unfortunate and it's an unfortunately real question in the community. Cause we want to be accepted. We want to be, you know, included. He's not wearing a Coros. He's not wearing a Garmin. He's wearing an Apple watch ultra.
What's your take on watches? Like, you know, nevermind Strava. What's your take on, he's wearing that. He asked, is he a dad bod poser? The answer is unequivocally, yes, he is. But is this why? Is this why?
Wolfie (36:22.812)
the watch, I think it probably just says that you've come into the sport relatively recent and you never owned a GPS watch before a smartwatch. So for me, like I didn't have like, you know what mean? Like for me, like it was, it was worse. Like I've always ran, I've always had a running watch for running before smartwatches were a thing. So for me, it was like, I was already in the Garmin ecosystem when the Apple watch came out and I thought it was.
Josh (36:33.23)
Hmm.
interesting. Yes.
Josh (36:42.786)
Yes.
Wolfie (36:51.76)
hilarious that they were touting this ultra Apple watch and its mega battery. And then my Garmin's like 10X what that is, right? So it just kind of tells that you're probably relatively newer or if not, then you just prioritize like being able to, you know, make and receive phone calls on your watch, which I wish my Garmin did. I don't think they'll ever have cellular capabilities, you know, but it just either shows that you're new or you've got different priorities.
Josh (37:14.733)
Yeah.
Josh (37:18.924)
That's a really good take. think the reason I didn't adopt, I just looked it up. The first Apple watch was April 2015. The reason I didn't adopt or was not interested in going there, because I was already wearing my Garmin 235 probably at the time, I can't remember. And I loved it. That was also part of my identity. And so I think for our era, let's call ourselves the Billy Yang, Chris McDougall era, there's no chance I would have put on that.
Apple Watch because that Garmin was a part of who we were. It worked with Strava the way that we needed it to, even if it was clumsy at times. But you're exactly right. It tells something about the sport. Seeing the Apple Watch out there. mean, Scott Jerrick, I think he was sponsored by Apple Watch or he launched. He was a big part of their launch plan. I don't think it worked, but the Apple Watch. I like I like what you're saying. It's it's simply evidence of a likely entry point into the sport, because if you were before 2015.
That'd be a real hard switch to make. But I'd be curious what other people think. Were you around back then, now you love the Apple Watch Ultra? I bought it and I couldn't. It was too much. It was just too much technology in my watch. I don't want all of the things that came with it at this point.
Wolfie (38:36.188)
Yeah, that's a great point. I love yeah, no, I mean something I never thought about so I Love that keep calling it
Josh (38:40.908)
Hmm, that's good. Alright. Yeah, please run more 649. That's run more 649. Alright, here's a new one.
Wolfie (38:49.286)
Love it.
Josh (39:37.154)
Yes, hey, and as you call and leave these messages, if you want to say things like first time, long time, that would mean the world to me. I used to call into radio shows in the early 2000s, political radio shows, and you know, that was just part of the lingo. I've been, you know, first time calling, long time listener. I love that stuff. Thank you, Chicago. I couldn't quite pick up the first name, did you? Tom or Sean from Chicago. I apologize if it's neither of those.
Wolfie (39:58.62)
Was it Tom? Okay. Yeah.
Right. And now he's going to leave another bad runners take on us, not knowing.
Josh (40:06.221)
But OK, so.
Yeah, how dumb we are. Well, we know that. Okay. We've never given a shout out and I haven't been on the website in a long time. DC Rainmaker. That is a really great resource. You've probably all heard of it. It's an exhaustive resource on, at least I went to it for gear reviews. And so this article that he's talking about is an article that
on DC Rainmaker where he's pretty hard on Strava for the changes to their API. What that means practically for everyone listening is that Strava is now like the only source of Strava information. can't, not gonna really be able to attach your Strava account to other things like coaching websites. So if you are currently being coached by somebody and that somebody wants to attach your Strava output,
to the coaching app to aggregate all of that information and to be able to better coach you. think those that's, if it's not already done, I mean, they're pulling that plug quick. With the app, go ahead, go ahead.
Wolfie (41:18.044)
So yeah, so what we're basically saying is that an app that's a hundred percent reliant on third party data, it's now shutting down the ability for you to the data that you're sharing with it, right? Like it's like, it's insane, the hypocrisy or the business model of this. Like if you went in like,
Josh (41:28.599)
Yes.
Wolfie (41:45.092)
If you pitch this idea to your kids or your wife or your employer, right? Like, I'm going to need you to share all of this with me. And then once it becomes mine, I am now no longer going to share it with anybody else. Like that's insane.
Josh (41:53.192)
Yeah.
Josh (41:59.756)
Yeah, yeah. I okay on one level it's their business. They have 100 million users that account. Yeah, yeah, I mean my dude Scott Hickenlooper who I really like he's in Salt Lake. He posted yesterday how he deleted Strava. I don't think I don't think it has maybe has something to do with this. He's just you know sometimes people set them free and untether themselves from Strava. I go through seasons of that. But I don't know.
Wolfie (42:06.779)
Not anymore.
Josh (42:26.412)
So Strava has 100 million users, which is I think 20%. I think there's something like 500 million users of health and fitness apps worldwide. They have 20 % of the worldwide users. So they have their own business. They're welcome to do whatever they want. And they're big and they'll probably still find a way forward. But on some levels, like all these other apps that were built around it, that's
That's what, like, I don't know, it's like a social contract within tech. Like, you allow this API because it gets built upon. So, chat GPT is only really great because it was built upon, it was like a skin on something else, which was a skin on something else, which is a skin on something else. And so you go all the way back to like the root of that thing. Strava is making the assumption that Garmin,
We'll always want to play with Strava. If Garmin all of a sudden decides, hey, I'm done playing with Strava too. And they want to kill their API. They want to kill their ability to connect. Then Strava is equally as vulnerable to, I think, and this is just me, you know, gut reaction. Strava is equally as vulnerable to Garmin withholding their information from them. Cause I think if you reduce, like where's the first cause? The first cause is the runner running. If that runner decides they want some data, they have to buy a watch.
So Strava doesn't own a watch, which maybe they're positioning themselves to release a watch. But if they don't, they're completely dependent on Khoros and Garmin and then the long tail of all the others to play well with them. So those others could be like, hey, you've now ruined our user experience because they relied on the watch to go to Strava. as Strava was the simple solution to send the data to all of the other, to the coaching apps, all the other fun stuff that's out there, you're reducing that well.
we don't need you either. Because ultimately, don't think Garmin, does Garmin need Strava? If Strava's not playing well and users aren't liking Strava, Garmin just build its own ecosystem.
Wolfie (44:30.844)
Yeah. I don't, yeah. mean, yeah, it's crazy. mean, Strava is just too big to fail. You know what mean? It's kind of like a financial institution at this point. you know, there's too many people who are dependent on it for, know, their, it's like, yeah. I mean, it's almost probably like a mental health crisis right now. Like there are people mentally dependent on their Strava upload and their Strava connections because
Josh (44:38.188)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Wolfie (45:00.72)
Yeah, I mean, you could go and find the same type of data within Garmin or, you know, Coros or Suunto. Like they all have different ways of tracking, you know, the information. And to be honest with us, probably 99 % of us don't even need much of Strava's data. It's just entertainment purposes only it's not actually structured for how we're trying to build our training arc. So if it's just a platform for entertainment, then yeah, it seems like we could easily just pull the plug on it and cut the nonsense.
Josh (45:18.254)
Yeah.
Josh (45:23.491)
Yeah.
Josh (45:30.146)
Yeah, I'll go out here and I'll say my official bad take is Garmin's going to release, they're going to get into hardware. There's no way around it. I think they're too vulnerable. They just, yeah, yeah, sorry. Strava is going to release their own hardware. They're too vulnerable. They've just proven how vulnerable it is to rely on another company. And yet they're totally reliant on these other companies unless you record directly from your phone, but then you're missing out on a lot of data that comes from the watch. So that's what I think will happen. I don't.
Wolfie (45:39.526)
means drop.
Wolfie (45:57.339)
Right.
Josh (45:58.894)
I mean, as a business, I respect it, do what you got to do. But as a consumer, I haven't been in love with Strava for a long time. And when you go through seasons where you're not running a lot, Strava is a point of is, is annoying. I hate it. I hate it if I'm not in a big training block, because I don't want to look in there and see that I ran 10 miles last week. they've got they've got other problems, but that was a good call. Thanks for that call. And Chicago. All right, we got one more call here we're gonna we're gonna check out.
Wolfie (46:17.136)
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Wolfie (46:25.2)
Yes.
Josh (46:30.862)
It's a long one.
Josh (49:30.814)
Yeah, the call just cut off. guess there's a three minute limit on there. Anyway, by the time the audience hears this will be trimmed down just a little bit. Thanks for that call. That was a cool call. Great point. Okay, let me give you this, Brian. This is a different, this is the opposite. This is something that we're gonna actually do at my race. My partner Joey came up with it. At the end of every hard event that we've ever done together, he's always looks at me when we're crossing the finish line and says, how much money would it take for you to go do it all over again?
So it's like the inverse of a DNF. It's do it all again at the end of the race. So our race is going to be a 50 K and we're going to offer to, to, we're having nailed down the number, but let's say it's six people to you come across the finish line. And if you want to do another 50 K, you will get a, you know, an equivalent of a, of a Butler and we will escort you the 50 K.
to do it again. So rather than setting out to a 50k and only running a half marathon and quitting, we're saying what if you set out to run a 50k and actually run a 100k instead? It's the inverse DNF. Anyway, that episode was very inspiring on a lot of levels to say why is it only important that we run the amount of distance that we set out to run? Why is that the only thing that's validating if we only do the distance that we set out to run that day? Why is 50 miles not validating when we won 100?
And that's what you were trying to flip on its head. Is that right?
Wolfie (51:01.34)
Absolutely. Yeah with the caveat that this applies to like ultra distances because there you can't normalize 50 miles you can't normalize 62 miles and beyond right like you certainly can't normalize a hundred like this is this doesn't go down below the marathon distance like nobody's talking about this in relationship to a half marathon or a 10k like no you get you get those ones done or you don't but yeah, the ultra marathon distance is
Josh (51:05.591)
Right.
Wolfie (51:31.002)
It's wild to conceptualize the distances that you've got to run just to get a finish. And I think there's, yeah, I mean, my own personal experience with getting into ultras, was small fat ass that my buddy, Chris Futter, organized as a training run for himself in preparation for a 100-miler. And he told me to hop in and it was an intended out and back, basically 100K distance. And we left from his house and...
traverse through the mountainous trails and would come back, right? And so I said, dude, I'll go with you. Like I've never, at that time I had never ran a marathon. And so I was like, there some drop points? Like I'll maybe try and get the 50K in. then he's like, yeah, my wife will be following us. You can pull out whenever you want. Dude, there was something so powerful about going in and celebrating the marathon distance and then a little bit longer, the 50K distance.
a little bit longer, the 100K distance and or the 50 mile distance and then the 100K distance and getting it all done. Knowing that I didn't have to do the 100K, but like it was building momentum on the day. That was a different experience than if I just knew it was a 100K or bust. So we don't usually, nobody, don't hear many runners, right? Celebrating in within the 100K or 100 mile, like, Hey, I just completed a 50K.
Josh (52:29.699)
Right.
Josh (52:33.6)
Hmm. Yeah.
Josh (52:45.006)
Mmm, that is cool.
Wolfie (52:55.28)
You don't do that, like allow yourself to stop in that race and celebrate like, just got the 50K under my belt. I just got the 50 mile or under my belt, right? Like you've got to give yourself those wins rather than saying, God, I'm still 35 miles away from my finish.
Josh (53:11.286)
Yeah. Yeah, that's good. And I appreciate that call. More of those calls, please. These are fun to tend to, to hear that you all are really engaging. Let's see, I can do this now.
Wolfie (53:17.274)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (53:26.05)
Thanks. All right, what else? Do we have anything else before we wrap up today?
Wolfie (53:31.804)
think that's it, man. think, yeah, we're going to roll right into December here in no time. So it's going to go by quick.
Josh (53:32.856)
All right.
Josh (53:37.334)
Yeah. Year end top 10 lists are going to be all over the place, but we'll probably end up with something that's like a list of some kind. I saw someone making fun of top 10 lists, someone in the industry making fun of them in the last day or so and maybe want to do like 100 top 10 lists and send them all to them because if you don't like them, just don't listen.
Wolfie (54:01.38)
Right. It'll be fun. Yeah. We'll definitely have our own unique take on top 10 less. I promise it won't just be your basic approach at, you the favorite running gear that half of it, probably haven't ran in more than just the one time that you needed to, you know, opine on it.
Josh (54:02.158)
You
Josh (54:09.08)
Yeah.
Josh (54:14.88)
Yeah. Yeah, it'll be fun to come up with that. until then, hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving and look forward to doing this again. All right. See you.
Wolfie (54:23.9)
Yeah, man. We'll see you guys.
