EP94 • Matt Johnson Ran Across Texas, Sally McRae’s Mammoth Project
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In this conversation, Josh X Drew and Drew Darby discuss the remarkable journey of Matt Johnson as he ran across Texas in 17 days. Sally McRae ran the Mammoth Project.
Drew Darby was there for it and he joins Josh to talk about it. They explore the challenges faced during this adventure, the dynamics of being a cameraman, and the unique character of Matt as a hybrid athlete.
The discussion also touches on the mindset required for endurance sports, the upcoming Project Mammoth featuring Sally McCrae, and what lies ahead for Matt in his athletic career. In this conversation, Drew and Josh delve into the intricacies of documenting endurance sports, exploring the balance between storytelling and authenticity.
They discuss the evolution of endurance events, the creative process behind filmmaking, and the impact of media on athletes' performances. Drew shares insights on capturing genuine moments while navigating the challenges of filming in high-pressure environments.
The conversation highlights the importance of long-term relationships in filmmaking and the unique experiences that arise during endurance challenges.
Josh X Drew (00:01.211)
On Instagram I came across what I would say is now a favorite. At the time he was a favorite, just not as much of a favorite then, that's Matt Johnson. Cool personality, great dude, just smart, clearly smart with content. I don't know where he's at on the creative side of that content, but he knows how to put the right people around him to get the amazing content. Somehow he's like equal parts dirtbag runner and like 70s rock star guy and the Marlboro man, all the stuff, all the icons, all the.
all the West the myth of the cowboy that I love combined with like biker culture and I don't even know how to explain Matt Johnson, but the reason it came on my radar this this person who's joining me today is Because Matt looks so good as like how's he looking so good. He's always running He's never holding the camera doesn't seem like and he's got some production quality to it But it's not like shitty clean like super clean like super perfect production. That's like really he's got a brand going for him already and at the time he had like 70 60 70 thousand followers and now he's north of 200,000 so that brings me to my guest today
Drew Darby, who's been around Matt, been following Matt and Matt just ran across Texas and Drew was there the whole time holding a camera. Drew is so much more than simply Matt's cameraman though. You've no doubt seen his work. He did the Sally McCray documentaries, three of those. Done a lot of other stuff that his name doesn't necessarily go on being a cameraman, like just working behind the scenes productions of all sorts of really cool running and probably lot of non-running stuff as well. So before we go any further, Drew, thanks for joining me. I'm glad you're here.
Drew (01:30.818)
Thanks for having me, Josh. It's great to be, you know, not in the back of an RV right now. I'm glad we chose to do this after the Ride Across Texas rep.
Josh X Drew (01:35.181)
Yeah. Yeah. Let's just go right there. What what in the hell did Matt just do?
Drew (01:42.538)
Yeah, I mean, what an adventure. 17 days and change across Texas from El Paso to Galveston. It was really cool to be there the whole way. Like it was definitely, I won't say it wasn't challenging. There weren't days where I was like, do we have to get back in the van? But I mean, we've been talking about this for over a year at this point. And so to be able to see it through to the end and to be a part of, I like to think like I play both the media role, but I'm also like a part of the crew. I'm out there running water to him. I'm running with him and you know,
Josh X Drew (01:57.628)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (02:08.423)
Yeah. nice. Cool.
Drew (02:12.396)
when we're troubleshooting, I feel just as invested in him getting across the finish line as me getting the finish line photo.
Josh X Drew (02:18.939)
Yeah, yeah, I tell you, I wanted to do that so bad. I am from Texas and when I saw the photos coming out of him going through West Texas, it was just like, I hated living in West Texas as a kid. And now like, I'm just dying to be back in that, that, you know, Big Bend desert, Marfa, just isolated from the world. mean, I'm dying to be there. And so it was really cool to see him, him going for it and the stuff that you were, that you were capturing for the, international listeners.
It's important to note that you just said 17 days to run across the state of Texas. I think multiple countries of France can fit in Texas just for context of how big Texas is. So 17 days, I mean, what was an average day like for perspective? Like how far was he going on an average day?
Drew (03:04.596)
Yeah, so that in total, we ended up around 840 miles. And so that breaks down to about 47 miles per day. And so Matt was pretty strict with 12 hours on 12 hours off. Obviously, you like move it a little bit if it was super hot one day, we started earlier, whatever. But that's about what it works out to be. Yeah. So and we didn't take the most we take the safest route. He can't run on the interstate. So there is a little bit more efficient way across but
Josh X Drew (03:20.445)
Sure. Ugh.
Josh X Drew (03:28.797)
Got it. even better. God, you're running through like those old country Texas towns like Dairy Queens and.
Drew (03:35.068)
yeah, yeah, no, we. it was fantastic. And I really love the West Texas portion. Like definitely once we got like around Houston and stuff like that, it was just a little too hectic. But yeah, and it's muggy. And but yeah. my gosh. Like Guadalupe National Park, that whole area was was fantastic. I just to be like, hey, can we take a detour for a day and like go climb some of these things and then come back?
Josh X Drew (03:40.851)
Yeah.
muggy. Yeah.
Josh X Drew (03:50.322)
Yes.
Stay here. Yeah. Yeah. man. Okay. So what was, I mean, the, was the route that he took and I said it was back roads were off of interstates and stuff like that. Was this a, was this a route like a quote unquote route? it was, there multiple people who tried to run this exact route before and there's an FKT attached to it. Was there anything like that? Or was this purely Matt's route?
Drew (04:15.224)
So the formal FKT followed, it connects two different points. It does start in El Paso, but it connects to Texarkana. And Matt chose Galveston instead for, yeah, yeah. Even though neither of those points are actually the furthest east in Texas. Right, so that's how we started the project actually, Matt and I was like, okay, we can go the furthest east. That would have been another like 100 miles. So you'd be over 900 and at a certain point it was like, okay.
Josh X Drew (04:24.143)
that makes more sense. That's further.
Josh X Drew (04:31.493)
Yeah, not touching Louisiana. Yeah.
Josh X Drew (04:44.925)
Just chill out.
Drew (04:45.066)
You know, so there's only one other guy that we knew of, Ken, who actually was super helpful in putting together the route. He did a very similar route a couple of years ago in 18 days. And so he helped Matt kind of put together the route. Matt tweaked some things, like he did want to actually just come through Austin. So we added some miles to go through Austin, know, hometown, that kind of thing for him. So, yeah.
Josh X Drew (04:57.427)
Okay. Well.
Josh X Drew (05:09.083)
Yeah. How did you get mixed up with Matt? mean, am I right? Does my memory serve me like when he was at that 60, 70,000 follower range that, I mean, you, you, it seemed like I've seen your name on his stuff. Were you shooting for him back then?
Drew (05:23.32)
Yeah, so that was right around when he moved to Austin in early 2023. I actually I initially met him at the Hope Pass aid station in Leadville 100 in 2022. When I was there, I was filming with Sally McCray and he came through and he actually ended up he ended up missing a cut off that year. But I was there then a year later, really our first big thing we did together was when he came back to Leadville, the Leadville 100 trail run the next year.
Josh X Drew (05:33.085)
No way.
Drew (05:51.712)
And so, but yeah, he moved to Austin in early 2023. And I mean, first we became friends, you know, running that kind of thing. And then he started to get more serious about, about social media and building a presence on there. And it just worked really well.
Josh X Drew (06:02.481)
Yeah. I mean, as a tangent, he put on, he's put on a clinic, I think with his social and not even necessarily the topic of the podcast, but like I had mentioned in the beginning, he does a really great job of towing the line between, I mean, it's so authentic, but it's also somewhat polished. Like that's a really hard line to tow. It's not like saccharin, it's not overly sweet. It's not, it's just, it's so mad. It's so well done. He's done such a great job with that. So that's also kudos to you.
Drew (06:32.918)
Yeah, yeah, we've, you know, some of his biggest hits are just shot on the phone, that kind of thing. I mean, there's even one, the first one that popped off, which is him running on the track and a funny line about running is like kissing. Yeah, yeah. I need to pull up the text at some point, because I texted him back and I was like, dude, I don't think this is the one. Like, I think this is just, I don't think it's that funny. And he was like, I don't care if I'm it anyway. I'm like, yeah, sure, dude, go for it. And it blows up, but.
Josh X Drew (06:38.225)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (06:42.392)
It's it's it's like kissing. It's so good. So smart.
Drew (06:59.84)
Yeah, I mean, we've developed a nice shared language at this point between like, yeah, it is that balance of we still shoot on the phone, that kind of stuff. Like I shot a bunch of stuff for the run across Texas on a phone because it's just like, get it out, post it, share it. you know, those I think we share an appreciation for those kind of things get people in the door. But what makes you memorable is spending a little bit more time and working on the messaging and working on
Josh X Drew (07:00.115)
I mean that.
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (07:10.151)
Yeah. yeah. Yeah.
Drew (07:25.622)
What kind of images do you like? How do you present yourself to kind of make people remember you as more than just like, ha ha, the funny guy, I saw the funny real one time swipe past. You know, that's what keeps the engagement going is actually starting to build. I mean, we never like do this formula. Like we don't have a lookbook. We don't have a mood board. Like if we had a mood board, it would just be like old cigarette ads and like Danny Duncan. That's honestly like our shared language.
Josh X Drew (07:29.0)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (07:32.645)
Right. Yeah.
Josh X Drew (07:43.453)
Right.
Josh X Drew (07:47.059)
So yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd buy that look book.
Drew (07:53.75)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (07:55.379)
So what do you think, how would you characterize it? So there may be some people who don't know Matt and that's fine. Actually, it may be to go up a little higher. One of the things I love about Matt is that he is in this hybrid athlete world. And I think without even trying, Nick Bear has brought more people to the sport of ultra running than those of us who are out there trying. And so I love the hybrid athlete. I love the movement. I love the intensity. I love the energy. And I also love that it's not their whole identity, but someone like Matt could just go, you know.
rip out a run across Texas. So when it comes to the brand of Matt and that you've worked with him so much on and been around, like for those who don't know Matt, how do you characterize who Matt is?
Drew (08:36.672)
Yeah, Matt plays in this really interesting space between being an athlete and he's a very, he's a very serious athlete. takes his training seriously and his results, I think speak for themselves that like he's above average for sure. Like, I mean, I am around the pros at the top of the ultra running game. And so like, I do see the next level a little bit, but you know, he's not just like,
Josh X Drew (08:51.986)
Yeah.
Drew (09:01.754)
let's have fun and run three miles with me, you know, I mean, puts in 150 mile weeks. And so he has that like performance very serious training aspect, but he never takes it too seriously, never takes himself too seriously. He is you can joke about anything about him and he is totally okay with it. And he'll come back with something else. So it does have is that little that little edge that little like punch back like, I mean, we joke about, know,
Josh X Drew (09:20.593)
Yeah.
Drew (09:25.718)
He is a little shorter than average, know, but he has that like kind of short person mentality, which I feel like I have to. Yeah, exactly. Where it's just like, like the fists are up and like, we're ready to go and no, yeah. And he just has a good, yeah, he has a good community too. Like that is that hybrid athlete. And it's more of like distance running curious than it is like serious ultra running. Like everybody gets it. Like he's almost a next generation.
Josh X Drew (09:27.251)
The Napoleon syndrome.
Josh X Drew (09:36.091)
Yes.
Josh X Drew (09:49.169)
Yes.
Drew (09:54.763)
I mean, I don't want to put him in the same category as a David Goggins, but that like kind of transcends traditional ultra running sport. And it's more of a like motivational inspirational character that also has this running aspect to it.
Josh X Drew (09:58.099)
Hmm.
Josh X Drew (10:01.787)
Yes.
Josh X Drew (10:07.249)
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's more critical that that it's not his whole identity and that the way you word it is perfect curiosity that and I think that's why Sally has been so successful with bringing so many new runners and Nick and like there's a curiousness to it and because they have a high self confidence and I mean that in the most positive way like Matt's cockiness to me and the podcast that I went and shot with him there was at first I mean, I didn't really understand then it clicked. It's like this
talking to himself in a way that is like getting himself pumped and like, you know, this positive messaging to oneself. So if you have that, it's something that I, you know, after that podcast, I really worked on with myself to at least just say some occasional nice things to myself. If you're curious and you have that high self-confidence, then the hundred miles has got to be really, and combine that with your fitness, hundred miles has got to be really curious. I like that.
Drew (11:02.006)
Yeah, yeah. And the confidence is for sure a big thing, I don't like some people that's to where you see this disconnect with what you see on social media and then you meet the person. Right. Like I think he definitely comes across on social media as a very like I'm going to win everything and set every record. And like he does he does believe a lot in himself, which is why I think his mind is as strong as it is. But like also, yeah, then you then you meet the person and he's it's not it's not the like the mat is
Josh X Drew (11:11.368)
Yes.
Drew (11:30.104)
the only character in the scene. No, he's not the other guy.
Josh X Drew (11:32.307)
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, watching him and talking with him to see, I mean, the perfect way that he worded to me on my podcast was you show up at the finish line and you tell everybody I'm the best. say I'm the best, I'm the best, I'm the best. And you believe it. And then you go finish 976th and then you look around and you say, see, I told you I'm the best. That to me was the perfect encapsulation of what he's what he was trying to say, what he was trying to
Go be your best. I don't even want to make it like a Hallmark card, but essentially it's like, go be your best. That's what's possible. And I think that's what people see in Matt is that people who observe his content and absorb it are motivated to go do something similar.
Drew (12:17.994)
Yeah, yeah. And especially once you understand like where he came from, that he's still pretty new to running all this kind of stuff. It's like, okay, so what else is really possible for everyone? Because if he can in three years go to running 800 some piles across Texas, an ultra marathon a day for 17 and a half days, you know, yeah, what else is possible?
Josh X Drew (12:23.559)
Yeah, yeah.
Josh X Drew (12:27.644)
Yes.
Josh X Drew (12:33.308)
Yeah.
Yeah. Right. Was there a particular day in that run across Texas that was especially intense for him and the crew and everybody or like, was there a, we may not make it kind of day or was it fairly smooth sailing?
Drew (12:50.924)
There was, you know, there definitely wasn't a will we make it kind of day for sure. Like I don't think that was ever in question. Definitely around I want to say was day eight or nine. We were in Midland. We had a very low point. His feet had been swelling. He was experiencing a lot of foot pain like every step like the kind of he comes in and says I'm nauseous but only because of the pain like my stomach is fine. So
Josh X Drew (13:16.349)
Whoa.
Drew (13:18.584)
we hit a really low point in Midland and I remember being in the back of the van with him at the end and he just like broke down. I mean, he's a tough, like he's a tough dude. He's an emotional dude. Like I don't see him cry a lot. And like it was, it was bad cause he said, it's not as hard as I thought it would be. Cause his fitness is there to run, run, walk for 12 hours and do 50 miles. Like fitness is there. But it was like, I didn't expect like every step to hurt.
Josh X Drew (13:38.343)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (13:41.659)
Yeah, yeah
Josh X Drew (13:45.895)
Yeah.
Drew (13:46.68)
pain. And so that that was for sure a pretty low point. And then we definitely we also had a couple sections of road, particularly towards the end, where he's just getting like, blown off the road by trucks, basically. And those are always intense because like, I don't I don't think we ever crossed the line into doing something very unsafe. But it's just unsettling when like you're there and you get in a rhythm and then you have to like, duck into a ditch because the truck is there's no shoulder or
Josh X Drew (13:59.398)
Ooh.
Josh X Drew (14:06.673)
Yeah. Yes.
Josh X Drew (14:13.778)
Yeah.
Drew (14:14.87)
you know, we're trailing behind him in the van and the shoulder disappears and then two cars are trying to pass each other next to us in the van on the side and he's on the side and it's just this like, there were definitely a couple like adrenaline dump moments of like, we got sketchy.
Josh X Drew (14:29.959)
The thing that kills me in Texas, and it's thought of as kindness, but on those two lane highways, if you're behind somebody, the person who's in front will acknowledge that you wanna go around them and they'll move even further over into the shoulder. And they're like almost on the dirt, just they're saying, hey, go ahead and come around, we'll even help you come around, we're being nice, because we're nice Texans and that's all well and good. But it is horrifying. I hate it, I hate those small two lane Texas highways for that because.
Everyone wants to be so nice. It's like just stay in your lane. If I'm going to pass you, let me go around you. So I can't imagine running along the shoulder of those small two lane roads and having to have to even have that on your radar. That's got to be a psychological challenge.
Drew (15:06.57)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like definitely if you wanted to do this safer and faster, like for sure running overnights. I mean, the overnight schedule would have been brutal, but like that was, we all kind of thought about that as like, that's probably how you, that's the only way around it. Cause again, you can't go on the interstate. But yeah.
Josh X Drew (15:15.171)
yeah.
Josh X Drew (15:25.159)
Yeah, interesting. you were still at the halfway point, or let's see, day eight, you were still emerging from West Texas. That's how big that area is, I guess. So Midland was day eight.
Drew (15:39.448)
Yeah, yeah, and we had to take a little bit of a, we went a little further north than you typically would like. We almost went into New Mexico, like we saw the sign for like turn here, go into New Mexico. But again, because of there's about three roads out El Paso and we weren't gonna go get stuck south. We couldn't go I-10, so.
Josh X Drew (15:54.973)
Right.
Josh X Drew (16:00.035)
Yeah, the fastest way to get from El Paso, Texas to Lubbock, Texas, where I'm from is to go through New Mexico. It's kind of that weird spot. I see. So it's very much very far from a straight line, especially going a lot of panhandle. There's very almost I mean, not panhandle, but that off to the west. There's no roads. So I see what you're saying. Those three like you got to go around the national parks and the state parks. Did you?
Drew (16:06.3)
okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Drew (16:19.435)
And all the climbing basically in the route is in the first like four or five days. I mean, there's only 20 some thousand feet of climbing, which if you're familiar with mountain races, like it's nothing for 800 miles, but a lot of that is in, because we hit the high point in Guadalupe on day two and a half, day three, and then it's all just kind of like downhill from there.
Josh X Drew (16:25.176)
Mmm, but it happened quick
Josh X Drew (16:31.643)
Right.
Josh X Drew (16:36.487)
Okay.
Yeah.
So I saw the van, the van looked cool. There's a handful of people involved with our sponsors on board. mean, how was it able to be such a crew? Was lot of volunteer time or what was the story there?
Drew (16:53.078)
Yeah, so we had a crew of, we had a few rotating members coming through, but like it was around five to six rolling with us on any day. And so some of those people are in the van and that's including Matt. like, you know, four to five crew members. And in the van we had Rob, who's our crew chief. People might know him from Paul Johnson's run across America earlier this year that kind of blew up on social media. So he was a crew chief for that. I mean, dude is.
Josh X Drew (17:15.495)
Okay. Yep. Yep. Smart. Yeah.
Drew (17:20.182)
that yeah, you could not find a better expert in the field of multi-day running on highways than Rob. Yeah. And then we had the rest of the crew was friends and family of Matt who were coming out to support for either the whole time, a few days at a time, or just like helping us, you know, they would ferry somebody in one day and bring us supplies. And then they would come out that evening and bring us dinner or something like that. So for sure, like the road definitely provided and friends and family provided though.
Josh X Drew (17:25.205)
I love that.
Drew (17:49.452)
Matt was also able to bring on, and this is where it's interesting in my role as the media director, in my opinion. We had a few too many sponsors involved, but he did have fantastic, a lot of people got excited about this and wanted to be involved, which is amazing. A lot of brands and founders got excited about it. And so, yeah, it was great to be able to be out there and for me not to feel like, I always have a challenge with some of these projects where it's like, if I know somebody's paying me out of their pocket, I always feel a little bit like,
man, like, did you just want to spend it on your experience to make your experience better? But, you know, the brands were able to come on to support me being out there. We had a fantastic local sponsor in Austin who gives an incredible deal on an RV and a van. A couple of folks came on to help with nutrition and recovery products and all those other things that kind of make it happen. You don't have to have that sort of support to make this kind of a trip happen. Like the guy who did it previously to Matt Ken.
Josh X Drew (18:23.623)
Right.
Josh X Drew (18:32.54)
cool.
Drew (18:47.288)
did not have nearly the support or the budget. yeah, is a, Matt's in a great place because of social media right now, where, and how the marketing economy basically is working, that people were excited about what he was doing and wanted to be a part.
Josh X Drew (18:49.479)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh X Drew (19:03.905)
man, I love it. What do you think someone, know, like for a mat type, because I also want to start to weave into Sally McCray. When you talk about the, I don't know if this is maybe my word, transcending the sport. I mean, they're, they're not limited by the sport. Their whole life isn't this particular sport of ultra. They've got other components to it in the realm of fitness. You know what, what's next for a person like, you know,
mad if it's the hunter Myler and he's got it sounds like he's got athletes and he was out at Antelope Canyon this year getting an athlete across the finish line and you see him out and about and you see same thing with Sally and then she reemerges. I don't even know what I don't even understand what happened at Mammoth. Were you there for that? Okay, well, all right, let's answer that rather than where they going next. What did she just do in Project Mammoth?
Drew (19:49.568)
I was there for that, yes. Yes, there's a... Okay.
Yeah, for sure. So, so project mammoth. And again, like, I'm still a little limited on what I can say. It'll all become clear eventually. But basically she and Tim Tollefson invented this this dream route of 200 plus miles through the Mammoth Lakes, Greater Mammoth Lakes area through the Glass Mountains and
Josh X Drew (20:07.676)
Okay.
Drew (20:21.744)
In many ways, Sally was a test pilot. Like Tim has done sections of this, but wanted to see, could we string it together? And a lot of people have kind of put the pieces together from there based upon who Tim is and what he does. There's not a lot that we can really talk about at that point, but we did go out and we shot a film and the film is not so much about like, I mean, last year we made three 200 mile races, race films, which was like survive the race. Basically that's the conflict. Like does she make it? Does she not?
Josh X Drew (20:34.461)
Yes.
Josh X Drew (20:45.606)
You
Drew (20:49.596)
And we had the opportunity this year to make a little bit less of a, does she survive kind of film and a film more about both she and Tim are at interesting points in their careers and their lives. know, they were both signed at the same time, 10, 11 years ago to Nike. And so there's just some interesting interplay between their careers, their lives, and also both their love for the mountains, their love for the Eastern Sierra and getting to build something together, not for the purpose of like,
Josh X Drew (21:00.765)
Yes.
Drew (21:18.656)
our sponsors are gonna give us a bonus if we complete this, but because like, we just wanna see if we can do this and if we can bring together a team to make it happen. So that's kind of my overview of Project Mammoth and that film will be out by the end of the year. And hopefully at that point, we'll be able to share a little bit more about kind of what it might impact going forward. Exactly, exactly.
Josh X Drew (21:27.123)
Hmm.
Josh X Drew (21:40.551)
where it might go from there. Yeah. Is she still a Nike athlete?
Drew (21:47.768)
To my understanding, yes.
Josh X Drew (21:48.775)
I think so. mean, I just that iconic yellow hat. I see that in my mind. I don't know if that's okay.
Drew (21:51.85)
Yes, yes, for sure. This year she has been running. Yes, yeah, this year she's been running for Nike trail. Yep.
Josh X Drew (21:57.363)
Got it. Yeah, well, I what do you think someone like Matt, you know, is is he going to where do you go from an 800 mile run across Texas?
Drew (22:06.424)
Yeah, right. Like, of course, a lot of people, I mean, I've already heard it in multiple conversations that dude, do you do the trans con? Do you go across America? Because that seems to be the next one. I know he definitely has some some goals in terms of being competitive racing for certain times, throwing down a fast 100 mile time throw it out of her fast 50 time. There are some races he wants to qualify and run for for sure. Like he's still he's still young ish, you know, still in his 20s. So
Josh X Drew (22:14.483)
Hmm.
Josh X Drew (22:26.727)
Mm.
Drew (22:35.17)
There is a time for speed, there's time for multi-day, but he also is at this cool stage where, you know, not being sponsored by traditional brands in the athlete model where like, okay, you race Western States or UTMB, those are your choices. That's where all your incentives are. Like if he just wanted to do projects like this, I mean, he's also talked about, you know, there's this thousand miles from the top to the bottom of Texas. Like there is a route and somebody's done it before.
Josh X Drew (22:43.517)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (22:49.842)
Yeah.
Drew (23:02.312)
So like he lives in this cool area where it's like, could just be projects from here on out. Like you don't just have to stake everything on a race. and so I think, yeah, I think he's definitely, I mean, the day when I was running with him on the last day, he was like, yeah, I'm going to do Ironmans. I'm never running a race again. Like I'm done running. I don't think that's the case, but, yeah, we'll see.
Josh X Drew (23:10.824)
Hmm.
Josh X Drew (23:20.987)
Yeah, yeah.
When you think about everything that Matt has done and you're getting, okay, let's say everything he's done prior to this run across Texas and you, as you just said, are the media director and you're gonna put out some sort of content, whether you call it a documentary or just simply a film or whatever you'd call it, what's that planning like for you? Because we've done some here at Borderlands with my dude Ben and we are,
trying to just roll the camera and see what happens more so than drive the narrative before we start. you know, I imagine it's much cleaner. Well, I know for sure it's much cleaner if you have the narrative before you start filming so you know better where to point the camera rather than just receive the story as it comes. So what's that like? I mean, with Sally or with Matt, like going into those big efforts, are you driving any narrative prior to, or you're saying, hey, I want to see this, or are you just rolling the camera and then knowing that you're going to have a
thousand hours of footage that you're going to have to find the story.
Drew (24:30.316)
Yeah, mean, it's definitely project to project at this point. Like for sure, when I am building something, a long form something around a race, it's going to be pretty cut and dry. Like the A conflict is how does the race go? The B conflict is basically where does this fit into your life, your year, your season? Like, you know, with Heather Jackson, who I think I shot seven races with her this year, couple last year. You know, Western States this year.
the story was pretty laid out was that she DNF last year, we're coming back for revenge and like, I'm going to finish no matter the cost. And so those are, those are kind of our A and B stories is how does the race play out? And then personally, like, how has she mentally gotten herself ready to go back to this? Like, I'm going to to pass the same place where I blew up my ankle pass the same place that this happened.
Josh X Drew (25:22.472)
Hmm.
Drew (25:23.468)
That's kind of the AB for a race, but yeah, for like a long form, like a project mammoth, like, yeah, the race, the effort doesn't really matter that much. And so we spent a good amount of time beforehand and we're also spending a good amount of time after the fact to just kind of build around there, develop the story with the run across Texas. Like, yeah, it's definitely, this one is also very different because I think what I do with.
Josh X Drew (25:32.253)
Yeah. Yeah.
Drew (25:52.064)
I guess what has the most views is the stuff with Sally and that's like a very set style. we've kind of across four films, we've kind of just like, we know what it's going to be. It's very voiceover driven. It's very Sally's ideas driven because she's a great narrator, great storyteller. With Matt, you know, we looked at this one as, hey, let's kind of make like a road trip film, like a film that like, yes, there's going to be moments of, know, like I have that whole thing where he's in the back of the car.
Josh X Drew (25:54.685)
Mm-hmm.
Josh X Drew (26:01.425)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (26:06.632)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (26:15.987)
Mmm.
Like a Thelma and Louise.
Drew (26:22.08)
Right, right. Yeah, like it's it's because he has both of the things he has the serious like, like everything hurts. And this is like, how am going to keep going all that kind of stuff. But like, we also just have just the the wackiest just not serious. have the van conversations on day 14 when no one can stand to look at the road anymore. We're all just like, like, we could just hit him and like, it would be over, you know, like those, you have those moments in there, too. So that one's definitely going to
Josh X Drew (26:27.101)
Totally.
Josh X Drew (26:34.705)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (26:46.351)
Ha ha.
Drew (26:51.488)
It's going to look and feel very different from, from Sally McRae's work. But I mean, the way that I shoot it is still kind of the same. Is that like, you evaluate the scene and you kind of figure out what are the points? Like what's it, what's the shift of today? Like does today, does the action of today actually matter? That's the thing with 17 days. There were some days that didn't really matter. And so once I could figure that out, it was like, okay, what else can we kind of shoot today? Whether it's landscape or whether it's really just focusing on crew, that kind of thing.
Josh X Drew (27:10.215)
Mm-hmm. Yeah
Drew (27:20.728)
to kind of just, it's more an experiential film than it, and sharing the experience of being on a road trip across Texas, than it is like, do we have one central motivating? mean, like, you know, Nick Baer's films always have that, whatever that punch is that like his like line that he hooks to. And I don't know if we have to have that format either. Like, I don't know if everything has to be incredibly serious or if there is.
I think that there's room for just like, we're having fun, we're having a great time. And like, yeah, there are to be some low moments. There are also going to be some like really beautiful shots that we're going to hold on because I want to. But, you know, there's also me just ripping a little camcorder in the back of the van, just having fun.
Josh X Drew (28:04.755)
Is there a moment, so let's say, okay, so you've got some element where you know where you're kind of point the camera. Maybe you don't know the precise narrative, but you know this general direction. Were there any like happy accidents on this run across Texas that you're like, man, I can't believe I'm so stoked to my camera on when that happened. I mean, was there any like moments of like action across 18 days when it feels like there's probably doesn't, you know, from my perspective, who's never done that, it doesn't feel like there's gonna be like this one moment that's like.
do or die. But was there any particular happy moment, like happy accident moments where like, my God, the camera's running. can't, I'm stoked on that.
Drew (28:41.017)
I mean, there was one moment where I was flying the drone as he was running along a kind of a side road, like frontage road. And then all of a sudden we're all just like watching out of the van and I'm watching on the drone and a guy on horseback is just like zipping down the other side of the road. And then like, he like stops and like waves to Matt and then they're like takes off again, you know, there are plenty of those who are just like roadside happenings just like up here. Yeah. And then
Josh X Drew (29:01.354)
Hahaha
Drew (29:09.356)
I mean, I'm always just obsessed with moments of like where the camera does go away to, and there were a couple of those. Those tend to be a little more serious for sure, but like, you know, there's definitely a moment at the finish. Well, I don't even know if we're ever gonna be able to tell the whole story of the finish, like, yeah, there just are some good moments where it's like, it feels like the camera disappears and there's just like pure, truth and.
you know, the person and the honesty of the moment comes through. yeah, like one of those, again, I keep coming back to this one moment in Midland where it's just like, yeah, like Matt takes photos with a bunch of friends and fans, know, fans, followers who ran with him. There's like a dozen of them. And then he like gets in the back and like immediately just breaks down, you know, and I have all of that. And it's like it's those moments to me, which I'm just so.
Josh X Drew (29:50.613)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh X Drew (29:56.53)
Mmm.
Drew (30:02.742)
so excited to be there for. They're also really hard to like, I, because especially the more that I work long term with, with friends, like those are the moments where it's like, dude, like, I don't want to be filming. Like I want to be like, Hey, like, we're going to troubleshoot this. We're going to figure this out. Let's work on it. Let's go get ice. Like all that kind of stuff. It's like, no, like I have to kind of put the hat down a little bit lower and not make eye contact. Kind of like put the camera to the side a little bit and be like, yeah, like you kind of have to work through this. Sorry. I need this.
Josh X Drew (30:05.201)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (30:25.169)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (30:29.395)
Yeah, I can't even say anything encouraging to you. It'll screw it up. Yeah, because, yeah. So Ben, who shoots all mine, he's one of my oldest and best friends. And so he's, you know, watching me in these awful low moments and he'll he'll say something to try and, you know, to be nicer, to be a friend, because that's what he is before he is, you know, the guy holding the camera for me. And when we're in a post looking at stuff, he's, you know, he's like, shut up and like, shut. Why are you talking?
Drew (30:33.888)
Right, exactly, exactly.
Josh X Drew (30:57.213)
Like I'm like, hey, I'm fine. You don't, know that you love me. Shut up. Just kidding. But yeah. So with.
Drew (31:03.658)
No, I definitely feel that and like another story I'll share too with that quickly is is in the project Mammoth film, what's been cool about filming outside of races in races, like I have a very strict code of like, I don't talk I have let athletes go off course, I don't tell them splits, I don't tell them who's around them. I know some people like, I'm not saying I've seen people give assistant and give gels and whatever but like, I hear photographers give splits I hear conversations that like
I generally just don't do that because like, I'm like, hey, you do your race, I do my thing. And like, maybe it's awkward if we're running for 10 minutes together, and I don't say anything. But like, it's your race experience, and I don't want to impact it. But with outside of the race, you know, Project Mammoth, run across Texas. Yeah, like at the end of Project Mammoth, I did have the chance to, and this is where I was so grateful was no race like, you know, I, and people have seen a lot of the very end of Sally climbing Mammoth Mountain.
Josh X Drew (31:37.651)
Hmm.
Josh X Drew (32:01.479)
That's all I've seen.
Drew (32:01.866)
I think what's right and I think what's going to be more interesting is seeing the three miles leading up to that because I was there I was I can't I went up with her because I just had this this gut feeling having shot with her long enough. I had this gut feeling I was like I need to she's alone and she needs somebody and I found her like off trail you know kind of just wandering. But that's yeah that's definitely a special thing for me is those times where I am able to like again it's like put away the camera a little bit.
Josh X Drew (32:21.715)
Mm.
Josh X Drew (32:30.504)
Yeah.
Drew (32:30.744)
and get in there and be a part of it. And so that's been a fun development for me this year is being outside of the race environment and getting to play a little bit more, both like, I mean, it makes shooting so much easier because I can also be like, Hey, can you move four steps that way? That'd be great. Like those kinds of things, or to, to actively participate too. Cause like, I do care so deeply about all of the athletes that I work with. And I care about them both getting the experience that they want.
Josh X Drew (32:48.391)
Yeah.
Drew (32:59.992)
And generally that involves some kind of success in getting to the finish.
Josh X Drew (33:05.467)
Yeah, I mean, it strikes me. I mean, you strike me as like a professional commercial, you know.
that you put out, but at the same time you talk also a lot like an editorial photographer or videographer or however you would say that producer. One of the things I forgot to mention to you earlier, I was in Sermlands and got to hang out with Jakob Zuckerman or as Jacob Zuckerman, he told me I could call him whatever. But we talked about, he was like, was Drew Darby there? And he said, what am I thinking? Yes, I'm Parkley. And so he was talking about, there was just a few of you, but one of the things that
Drew (33:31.149)
Yeah.
Drew (33:37.716)
at Berkeley.
Josh X Drew (33:44.039)
Jacob said, and it was like what I hear other of my buddies who are editorial guys say is that, when everybody goes left, you go right. And for an editorial photographer who's a war photographer, like Jacob, it makes sense. You're trying to tell the story. What I think is interesting about what you just said, it felt more editorial that you'll let someone go off course or whatever. I, there, cause that's not your job in that moment. That's not your job. You're there to capture a story.
And I hear on some levels you're saying, yeah, I don't want to impact that runner's race. But on the other is it's like, this is what's really ha what, you know, the, best thing that I could get as a viewer would be a very real, what it's like in that moment. And so if you're, you know, directing the runner, so to speak, and not letting them run off course, if they need to, that feels less authentic, but how, how would you relate to that? I mean, editorial versus commercial, like, how do you see yourself?
Drew (34:33.858)
Yeah, mean, definitely my taste is more editorial. part of it is nature and nurture. Like, I know if you, you you put me in a studio, so many people can out shoot me. They can set up the lights and get the perfect crisp, clean, all that kind of stuff. But you know.
Josh X Drew (34:46.899)
Hmm.
Drew (34:52.556)
There are lot of those people who I talk to who when I tell them, you know, for one assignment, I had to run 13 miles in a row following Sally in the Alps going with 6000 feet of descent, you know, ropes and all that kind of stuff. And I've got a gimbal and we just had to do that. That was the assignment and they can't comprehend. like, yeah, to me, there's always going to be somebody in the commercial sense that can out shoot me. I love doing commercial stuff every once in a while, especially the like, you know, I've been on some bigger sets, you know, some
big car company, that kind of stuff, like not directing it or anything. But you know, it's like you're a camera operator. It's fun to have catered lunch. That's rad. Like I love like, I love that kind of stuff. I love like their assistance, you can just kind of like ask for something and they will get it like that's amazing. I love that. But being in it with being in it with an athlete, being in the thick of it, working hard to get a shot yourself. And like, I also love long term collaboration. So we're not just like,
Josh X Drew (35:26.853)
Right. Yeah, that's very different. Yeah.
Josh X Drew (35:46.685)
Mm-hmm.
Josh X Drew (35:51.25)
Mmm.
Drew (35:51.83)
We show up one day, we work really hard together, we shake hands, we never see each other again. Being able to build a relationship with Sally over what's now three years and her family and all that kind of stuff. And just to the point of, I can just understand where things are gonna go before they happen with her. And so having that kind of a relationship is really cool. And I feel like that brings out the best, or it gives me the best opportunity to do my best work because I'm not.
Josh X Drew (36:09.459)
Mm.
Josh X Drew (36:13.233)
Yeah.
Drew (36:19.274)
It's all improv at a certain point with these long endurance events, but yeah, I value the long-term relationship so much in both just continuing to work with somebody and in the work itself that I'm creating.
Josh X Drew (36:21.212)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (36:32.499)
It reminds me a little bit, I listened to an interview with Jimmy Chin talking about Alex Honnold climbing the big thing. What's that called? Not Half Dome, El Cap And it was that same thing of he knows Alex, he cares about Alex. But in that moment, there's like this switch that flipped that it was his job to tell that story. And he was also very aware of his impact on Alex.
Drew (36:42.785)
Okay, okay.
Josh X Drew (37:02.183)
you know, that would there be a moment where Alex decides to do something that he wouldn't necessarily normally do because the cameras there, the cameras put pressure on him to go up on a day that wasn't hit. It wasn't the right day for him to go up and all that. think those are interesting considerations that these, for someone in your position, you know, decisions to be making on how you're impacting your subject. Now it's different than now cap. Obviously the consequences are largely different, but I mean, in terms of scale, in terms of consequences of
going up too soon, if Sally leaves a day early, you highly unlikely that she has the same consequences as Alex Honnold, but you are impacting the story, whether you like it or not, because you're there. So how do you think about that? Like let's say with Matt, you're on the road with him. Do you feel like, do you ever feel that like, gosh, I am impacting this moment more than I want to be.
Drew (37:55.39)
Yeah, that's, that's something I think about a lot for sure. And I mean, I sat with everybody before I sat with the whole crew the night before we took off. And, you know, I give my spiel at this point, which is like, hey, most of you know me, some of you don't. But like, there's going to be a camera around, I'm there are going to be moments where you get in a fight and the cameras there and like, I just need us all to be in a circle of trust that like
This isn't the stuff I'm gonna flip on social media in 60 seconds. But for a long form piece, I just need to shoot everything and we can decide later. Like that's the ground rule I try to set with everybody is like, hey, I'll shoot, like please just let me shoot everything. And if this never sees the light of day, no big deal. But we never know what we're gonna want until it's all over. So that's definitely a big thing. But yeah, like am I impacting?
Josh X Drew (38:25.523)
Mm.
Josh X Drew (38:29.565)
Yeah.
Drew (38:49.676)
And with Matt's run, was definitely challenging because some sponsors were very specific on what they wanted deliverables wise. Like there was one shoot that we had to actually stop the run for about 15, 20 minutes. we had to, because I, you know, and this is where it's like, I don't get to make all of the decisions. And I was given a brief that like didn't really make sense for an endurance event. It was more of a content trip kind of brief.
Josh X Drew (39:03.697)
Mmm. wow.
Josh X Drew (39:15.613)
Hmm.
Drew (39:18.028)
We got it done, we got it done. But that was a moment where I was like, like that crossed the line for me into this is probably more, this is interfering more than I would want to. Like there were some bits where, you know, I run out of the van and I have a GoPro and I'm giving him a donut and like, he says some funny stuff, eats the donut and you know, we post it and it's like, okay, he was gonna eat anyway. You know, if he laughed, like, was it because the camera was there? Was it I was there, we said funny?
Josh X Drew (39:29.969)
Mmm.
Josh X Drew (39:42.119)
Ha ha ha.
Drew (39:47.35)
I don't know, like I don't feel I interrupted. But yeah, when it came to that, some of that, like the stop or you know, you see, hey, you have to wear a certain thing, be it shoes or clothes and that kind of stuff. And like, I have to shoot you in a certain piece of clothes. It's like, like, again, this is kind of what you signed on to do. But also, it just does feel like it's getting in the way of you of you getting to the goal. Like, I don't think that 20 minutes at the end of the day,
us stopping to do a door dash thing for 20 minutes. Did that change his finish time? Probably not. Like he's still probably, you know, ended up hurting his ankle on the next to last day, it really slows down the last day. I'm like, okay, door dash seven days later did not impact him rolling his ankle pretty bad. Like that ended up being the big thing that slowed us down. But yeah, that's in the future. I don't know if I'll ever do something like that again. But like I would probably evaluate more. But I mean, I see this with all these like
Josh X Drew (40:19.827)
You
Josh X Drew (40:35.57)
Hmm.
Josh X Drew (40:41.959)
Ha ha ha!
Drew (40:45.9)
that asks for any of these branded pieces, even if it's just like, you know, when I was at CCC with Heather and UTMB had some asks of us to go certain places and talk to certain people and get certain shots. And it's like, it's the day before the race. And it's this extra time that's being added on taking away from race prep. like, it's a double edged sword of like, we want to make a video and somebody is supporting to make it happen. But like, is it interfering with their experience? So I think
A lot of athletes probably have to consider that of like, is the having the camera crew around or is having the media around worth the potential boost? Or does it get in the way of at the end of the day, a lot of these athletes is like the job is performance. The job is performance and does it get in the way? So that's, that's a consideration. I always try to minimize my impact as much as possible. Like I'm very happy to just like fly on the wall and just sit there and just kind of like shoot whatever. But
Josh X Drew (41:17.523)
Hmm.
Josh X Drew (41:32.384)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (41:41.107)
No.
Drew (41:42.754)
Some crews are also not like that. Some crews are like, so just do this, do that.
Josh X Drew (41:46.469)
Yeah. Well here as a sort of land the plane here, you mentioned as you were talking through and correct me if maybe I misheard you, but I don't think I did. You said something about the ending being difficult to capture or encapsulate or was there something about the ending? What was unique about the ending of when Matt was finishing running into Galveston, which is the coast, the Gulf of Mexico. What was, what was so unique about it?
Drew (42:12.556)
Well, I just think that there were some things that developed behind the scenes. I'm trying to be gentle to this because it's not my place to talk about right now. you know, it's like there were just some like relationship dynamic, that kind of stuff, which I mean, 17 days on the road, things get a little bumpy. And especially I think Matt handled pretty well the stress, but I think the stress did get to him eventually of like, just, mean.
Josh X Drew (42:28.624)
Absolutely.
Drew (42:40.394)
enduring this effort basically. so, but I think that the end really, you know, who is there? And all of that kind of gave a little bit of closure to some of those things. I don't know if that part of the story will really be told or if that's just for us, but like that there were some special moments there for sure. And that's, yeah, I mean, that's the other thing too, that I always weigh is like, there are moments where I think to myself, maybe this is probably a weird thing.
Josh X Drew (42:41.713)
Yeah, yeah.
Josh X Drew (42:59.571)
That's awesome.
Drew (43:10.028)
but I'm like, know what got that is like the camera of the mind. Like the camera of the mind got that. Sometimes you didn't get the shot and that's okay. Like the thing happened and we experienced it. And especially with something this long, I'm like, okay, maybe you didn't get the A plus plus plus moment, the deepest moment. We got a lot of A plus moments. So if we all shared in the experience of one of them that wasn't on camera, like.
Josh X Drew (43:14.323)
Hmm
Josh X Drew (43:21.447)
Yeah, yeah.
Josh X Drew (43:29.181)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Drew (43:36.864)
I think that's great. And honestly, that feels a little bit more pure than like, if it's not on camera, we can't like experience it or talk about it. Like, no, like it still feels a little bit like, okay, we weren't just doing this for the camera. Again, like at the finish, it's like, things would have played out that way, whether I was there or shooting, not whether there were three cameras, because there were three cameras around him at the finish. Like whether those cameras were there or not, things would have played out the same way. And yeah, that's another thing that I look forward to. It's just like, yeah, are we...
Josh X Drew (43:50.835)
Hmm.
Drew (44:07.164)
We never skew too far or the I skew too far into the like, we're just creating it for the camera. You you still have to have those moments that are just for you.
Josh X Drew (44:15.377)
Yeah. When can we hope to see the video?
Drew (44:21.442)
So that one's gonna be early next year, 2025. That one will probably be late February, early March right now.
Josh X Drew (44:28.101)
Okay. When you're dropping a release at this point in your career, are you, is it just a, right, hey everybody, it's on YouTube now, or are you doing, you know, bigger release parties, anything like that? Do you have anything planned for how you'll release it or that to be determined?
Drew (44:45.942)
I think there will be something local for a local premiere for Matt's piece, probably attached to his charity partner. He was raising money the whole time for ValorFit that works with veterans. And so I think there might be a live event component to that. Yeah, I mean, a lot of stuff is kind of, I don't always get a say in it either. lot of stuff is kind of just, goes to YouTube. I am finishing up an independent doc, not a branded piece that is gonna do the film festival circuit next year, which that'll be fun. I haven't done.
Josh X Drew (45:01.469)
Amazing.
Josh X Drew (45:12.403)
Okay, nice.
Drew (45:14.22)
the festival circuit in a couple of years. hopefully that'll...
Josh X Drew (45:16.475)
Is that out? Whatever you're referring to, is it out? Available to watch? Okay. So it'll be a release at a festival.
Drew (45:19.512)
No, is not done yet. It is not done yet. yes, yeah, it's gonna be held back in a little bit more of that traditional festival route, at least at this point. But hopefully, I hope eventually everything makes it to YouTube because I'm just like, I think YouTube's the greatest and that's where I watch everything. don't subscribe to streaming services. I just subscribe to YouTube, it's great.
Josh X Drew (45:28.753)
Yep. Nice.
Josh X Drew (45:34.119)
Yeah.
Josh X Drew (45:37.565)
where the people are. Yeah.
Yeah, no need. Well, Drew Darby, thanks. I appreciate it. This is as high time we met. I've seen your name. We have a lot of friends in common talked about you as if I know you. Like I said to to Jakob Zuckerman, I asked if you were there like I know you. I don't know you at all. But Scott Hickenlooper says nice things about you. A lot of people said nice things. I'm glad that we finally got to talk and I'm really stoked to see what you have next. And of course, everything that you already done at this point has been great as well. So thanks for your time today.
Drew (46:08.204)
Thanks for having me on, Josh.
Josh X Drew (46:09.393)
Yeah, man, let's do it again.
