ep95 • Two running empires: Adidas vs Puma. The famliy feud + their trail shoe portfolio.
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Thomas Neuberger joined me from Believe in the Run to talk about the familiy feud that built two great running empires. Puma + Adidas.
Rudi and Adi were the perfect team until they weren't. They spent most of their adult years at odds and eventually were buried at opposite ends of the same cemetary.
We dig into the family feud and talk about the current road and trail portfolio.
More from Believe in the Run:
A comprehensive overview of Adidas' shoe portfolio.
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Salt Lake Foothills Trail Races - May 31, 2025
PATH Projects - My favorite running shorts, Borderlands10 for 10% off.
Josh (00:00.589)
A while ago, I reached out to Thomas. He's a great follow on Instagram. And so said, Hey, you know, I don't talk much about gear. don't know much about gear, but you know, the audience deserves to know more about gear and no one is doing a better job than believe in the run in my opinion. And so I said, Hey Thomas, can you join me for some podcasts? He said, yeah, I could, but you know, who'd be better as Taylor Bodine. He's my lead trail reviewer.
Thomas (00:22.382)
Thank you.
Josh (00:23.161)
So I've done a lot of episodes with Taylor and I tell you, it's like going to school in a good way. I mean, I've been running, I've been wearing shoes my whole life. I haven't known much about it until these episodes with Taylor. And so one episode I threw out to Taylor was, hey, why don't we, let's talk about the Dossler brothers. I think it's an interesting story to do Adidas versus Puma. Cause they're both doing some trail shoes. They're both legacy brands. have incredible story, an interesting story. And he said, I'm not the one to do it. You got to go back to Thomas.
So today I'm stoked to have Thomas Neuberger join me. He's the founder of Believe in the Run, been doing it since 2009. I know just a little bit about him from our discussion before. I'm a huge fan of the aesthetic of Believe in the Run, the community that he's building, the events he's putting on, most specifically the enamel pins are incredible. But Thomas, before we go any further, I'm glad that you're here. Thanks for joining me.
Thomas (01:07.484)
We'll have to send you some.
Yeah, no, it's my pleasure. You know, it's interesting. I love kind of like the way that this community all comes together and you know, what Run Borderlands does is so different from what we do, but it's still serving people with the same kind of like interests. And I do think there is, I think it's great you're having Taylor on because he can really help people get the most out of.
Josh (01:28.952)
Yeah.
Thomas (01:35.212)
their running experience. think that, you know, you can show trail running and the romance of trail running and the, you know, the hard parts of struggling through some of these ultra distances or even just going up a short distance, it's up straight vertical. And then Taylor can help, you know, help somebody make the right choice for footwear for these different races.
Josh (01:48.779)
Yeah. Yep.
Josh (01:55.427)
my goodness. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He's fantastic at it. Since we've got you here, the founder of believe in the one Taylor and I will talk about it and you know, I'll give my take on how I perceive believe in the run, but will you kind of hit us with the high level? Like what is believe in the run?
Thomas (02:09.166)
All right. So believe in the run just started out of like my fascination with gear. So when I was younger, I was into skateboarding and it's kind of the same thing. was never a great skateboarder, but I had, I love the gear and I could put together decks and you know, if you wanted someone to help put grip tape on your deck and do all that stuff, I was your guy. could help you build a three quarter ramp. All that stuff was like a lit port had every pal for all.
Josh (02:14.349)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (02:23.927)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (02:33.685)
Nice. And that was in California? Okay. Got it.
Thomas (02:36.876)
Yeah, this is in the Bay area of California. All the Powell Peralta shirts, Santa Cruz, all that stuff. was just TNC. I live for it. And, you know, later I kind of went away from skateboarding and when I found running, was like, I wanted that culture fit back into.
Josh (02:43.807)
dude. Yes. Nice.
Thomas (02:57.558)
Like that's what I was interested in running. was interested. I like, loved running the miles, but I loved seeing the gear and what's, what's new and what's exciting and color trends and that kind of stuff. So we started, you know, on my own, started like kind of experimenting with different shoes, seeing what worked. was never like loyal to a brand. and we started in 2009 and just started,
Josh (03:17.271)
Yeah.
Thomas (03:22.126)
Talking about, was actually training for trans Rockies that we talked about. And I, I was like, man, this is an audacious goal. I just started running. So I've done like one or two marathons and then I signed up for 130 mile race. And I was just like.
Josh (03:25.601)
Okay, nice.
Josh (03:35.288)
Ha ha ha.
Thomas (03:36.918)
a little scared. So I was like, let me get people involved. That way I know I'll do it. And so I started doing my training online and actually was raising money for a charity. And as I was doing that, people just kept asking me, what, what polls are you going to use? What this are you going to use? So I started talking to them and then people started sending me, you're going to talk about this. And you got to think 2009, there's no Instagram. Facebook is kind of like there, but
Josh (03:38.04)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Josh (04:03.16)
Right.
Thomas (04:04.012)
For runners, there was like one space and that was daily mile. I don't know if you remember daily mile, but yeah, they're gone. But, yeah, so I started talking about this stuff and there was no place for these brands to kind of have like an independent outlet. The only other person like run blogger was around Pete Larson, who, who was very much helpful to me getting started. and we kind of built up.
Josh (04:08.726)
my gosh, yeah. Wow. Thought about that in a long time.
Thomas (04:29.942)
And then brands just started being like, Hey, if we send you these polls, would you run with these polls? And I was like, leaky polls. Sure. Why not? And so that kind of started being like the impetus. it started going away from me talking about training, which I thought people would be interested in to just the gear. And the more I talked about gear, more gear came people. Yeah. So that's how it
Josh (04:37.091)
Yeah.
Josh (04:50.187)
Yeah. It seems like within this whole world of media that gear is gears where it's at. Like I was just kind of even thinking through like this idea of the customer journey with running and the moment someone decides they want to run the next step is a gear. It's a gear inquiry on Google. What should I wear? What's the best shoe to do this or to do that? And I think, you just from my outsider perspective, that's where believe in the run. That's where you capture them. You capture them from the moment they decide they might want to start running.
Thomas (05:17.676)
Yeah. Well, I hope so. Like it's funny. We hear from, you know, people who work at the stores and they'll say people will come in with their phone open with the believe the run website up and, know, looking to see what shoe they might want to get. And then the other side of it is it's like, I don't, I can't tell someone how much a difference running in the right gear makes as far as making feel good, making, making running more enjoyable. So
Josh (05:23.863)
Hmm.
Josh (05:33.442)
awesome.
Josh (05:43.127)
Yeah.
Thomas (05:46.38)
Like we hope that we're doing a service for people, even though we get a lot of complaints that we get people to buy a lot of shoes.
Josh (05:53.241)
Well, I mean, you've done a fantastic job. I'm a big fan of the aesthetic. One of my biggest downfalls, because I've never been a big gear person, is that I've chose almost entirely on aesthetic. I've run, I've run, I tried to run 100 miles in shoes that are too narrow, but I like the way they look. And so that's my problem. But I think, your aesthetic has been great. And that's, to me, that's, you know, that draws me in instantly, even if a majority is road and I'm not running the road, I'm still always interested in the photos and, you know, the...
Thomas (06:09.901)
Yeah.
Josh (06:22.059)
even the visual of your video podcast and everything are fantastic.
Thomas (06:26.102)
Yeah. I mean, it all started out originally, like I said, you know, 2009, you kind of work in solo. Megan came on a little bit later. she's probably been around 2012 or so. And then, you know, the addition of Robbie, he's just such a talented writer and he's a creative guy that helps me kind of like, bounce creative ideas off of, and we kind of collaborate on a lot of stuff to.
Josh (06:35.769)
Okay.
wow.
Josh (06:50.328)
Hmm.
Thomas (06:52.694)
Like he's he's a really good partner. then, you know, we've added people in like Carl who's great with the video. So now we have some, you know, he helps with filming our shoe reviews and also some of our long form, like. Recaps for the weekend or something like that. And so like it really is at this point.
Josh (06:57.133)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (07:07.639)
Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas (07:12.332)
You know, it's a committee project and we all work together and hopefully in the future we can find more people that can fit in there and we're even talking to Taylor about some possibilities. Yeah.
Josh (07:22.85)
nice. Well, and you're headquartered in Baltimore. Do you kind of wear that as part of the identity of the brand too, that you're a Baltimore company?
Thomas (07:31.008)
Yeah, think it, you know, personality wise, Baltimore is kind of a gritty kind of underdog city anyway. If you came here, you could fall in love with it, but a lot of people don't even give it a chance. which I don't know. One of the things that's great about it, like if I was in New York city or even like Austin today, the idea of having the balls to be like, look, I'm going to tell people what gear is good. And I'm going to do that.
Josh (07:37.101)
Yeah.
Josh (07:42.68)
Yeah.
Thomas (07:59.894)
It probably would have been intimidating. You know, we, we started a running club called faster bastards and. What have I named it faster bastards? If I really knew how fast people were when I, when we did it, you can be faster or you can be a bastard. Yeah.
Josh (08:06.979)
Great.
Josh (08:14.329)
That's great Yeah, yeah, you don't have to be both I like that I like that a lot Yeah, and here in Paris you when you were here for the Olympics. I saw you post a photo that you went to the French Bastards It's phenomenal. Yes, phenomenal bakery. Every time I pass it. I think about leaving the run and you so where I'm from The you did perfect No, just a C-shirt
Thomas (08:29.218)
Bakery.
Yeah.
I bought a t-shirt.
Yeah. They're like, do you want any bread? And I'm like, no, just the t-shirt.
Josh (08:43.255)
You know, so where I'm from, Friday Night Lights, nailed. If you've ever seen the TV show Friday Night Lights, it is so absolutely perfect. It nailed my upbringing. How true is the wire to where you are?
Thomas (08:49.539)
Yeah.
Thomas (08:55.726)
would say the wire is probably true in a pocket of where we are. It's like, have you been to Chicago? Okay. Chicago is like, I remember they were talking about the murders and stuff that were going on there and the, you know, in certain areas, don't hear Chicago doesn't get a bad rap because they have a section of town where there's gang violence and violence and drug related violence and all that stuff.
Josh (09:00.823)
Yeah, I have not.
Josh (09:10.423)
Right.
Josh (09:17.145)
Mmm.
Thomas (09:22.24)
Chicago still stays like a shiny city. And the same thing is with like New York. Like, yeah, if you probably go some places you shouldn't be, you're going to see some shit go down. Baltimore is the same. The difference in Baltimore is I grew up on the West coast and there you have a town, a little bit of space, the next town. And so you could be living in a really high income, nice place. And then you have to get on
Josh (09:24.995)
Yes.
Josh (09:30.701)
Right.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Thomas (09:52.374)
a highway to get to a place that's maybe a little more dangerous. Whereas on the East coast, because it kind of all happened at the same time, you can be blocks. So it's like where our headquarters is in Baltimore. Yeah, I probably wouldn't tell you to go four or five blocks in another direction. You probably want to avoid that area, but you know, it's not, I think it's just a different dynamic, but Baltimore itself is, is a beautiful city right on the water.
Josh (10:00.653)
Mmm.
Josh (10:11.062)
interesting.
Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas (10:22.294)
I get to run every morning watching the sun come up over the Chesapeake Bay. see wildlife. It's beautiful.
Josh (10:25.017)
So, nice.
Nice. Well, I mean, it has a compliment. It's back. It's always a it depends on which I've rewatched most recently is Friday Night Lights, my all time favorite or is the wire. I mean, I can't that's brilliant. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. OK. So the real reason we're here, though, today, I'm curious. I love this story of Adidas and Puma. From the moment I heard it, I mean, it's just it's it's it's incredible. And I there's books about it. People have done podcasts about it before.
Thomas (10:39.872)
It is a good show.
Josh (10:58.413)
But why it's interesting to me also in the context of what I do with borderlands is that they're, they're dabbling in trail there. mean, more than dabbling there, they're investing in trail shoes and. But so two brothers, Adi short for Adolf and what Rudy short for Rudolph. So Adolf and Rudolph started these, they were in business together and then they had a major falling out and then they went off of their own way. And I guess the falling out got even bigger, but.
To me, the bottom line, what's crazy is that one brother started Puma and another brother started Adidas. Maybe first question, do you personally say Adidas or do you say Adidas?
Thomas (11:37.378)
You know, I try to say Adidas and here's why I know it's unpopular in the U S but, you sound like kind of like a pretentious prick, but the reason I want to lean into that is the man's name was Adi, like it's Adi Dossler. So like did not say it that way is to say like, if I was to, you know, be like, Hey, Jish, you know, it's like,
Josh (11:45.645)
Yes.
Josh (11:53.891)
Fair, me too, I'm with you on that, yes. Yes.
Josh (12:04.169)
Yeah.
Thomas (12:05.804)
That's not my name. name is Josh, but you know, it's like, so for me, try to do that and also out of respect for the company, you know, it's like, why not? Like when I go and they call it Nike in, in the UK, like, no, it's, it's Nike. So.
Josh (12:07.587)
Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (12:20.483)
Right.
Yeah, okay fair enough All right. So what can you shed some light on that whole story? I mean, there's I know there's there's Olympics involved There's all sorts of crazy things involved with that story. Yeah, I got to
Thomas (12:25.87)
You
Thomas (12:32.076)
Yeah, well let me ask you a question. Do you have a brother? Okay, you get along with all of them? Okay, all the time. Growing up smooth as...
Josh (12:38.239)
Actually, very well.
Josh (12:42.381)
Growing up, yeah, I was a baby and I think I brought street cred to them because I could like, they could bring me to a baseball game or something I could perform. So we got along pretty well. yeah, not the same way these guys, actually I can't imagine something tearing apart a family the way that it tore apart the Dossler family.
Thomas (12:55.392)
Okay, so you're not going to relate to this story as much.
Thomas (13:03.362)
I mean, my family hasn't been torn apart, but I've worked with my brother and we've had disagreements. And it's funny because, you know, we talk about the Dossler brothers and, know, Puma and Rudolph was very much the marketing and sales guy where Adi was very much, I want to make the best product possible. And so together, when they were working together, it was great. You had one brother making the best product. You had the other one.
Josh (13:06.667)
Yeah.
Josh (13:21.962)
okay.
Thomas (13:32.398)
marketing and sales. It sounds like a perfect combination. Things went south and we can get into that. if you, the one thing that I always like to remember is like everybody thinks that Jesse Owens ran in Adidas in the 1935 Olympics and he was actually running in the gate issue, which was that basically is German for brothers was both of them. So, gated Osler,
Josh (13:34.723)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (13:50.147)
Yeah.
Josh (13:55.265)
When yes. Yeah.
Thomas (14:02.07)
he was running in that shoe. But the interesting thing is, and this I think did fall more towards Adi, was he was like, I make the best product I wanted on the best athlete. And think about that, it was a black American athlete that couldn't sit well with Hitler when he wore those shoes. Yeah, I believe that's the date, yeah.
Josh (14:03.971)
interesting.
Josh (14:13.239)
Mmm.
Josh (14:21.913)
my goodness, I didn't even think about that. That was 1935? Dang. Interesting. Okay.
Thomas (14:29.402)
And so right, right before the shit hit the fan in Europe and he's putting his shoes on who he thinks is the best athlete, which to me kind of sums up Adidas' philosophy. Even to this day, it's like, I don't care who it is. If they're the best athlete, we want our product on their feet, helping them perform to the best of their ability.
Josh (14:32.728)
Yeah.
Josh (14:52.077)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You see that at like the, the DNA, they say that, no, no, long after the founder of a company has gone, the DNA will live on within that company, whether it's good DNA or bad DNA. And even the way that you just said product Adidas was product and Puma was marketing. When I think of Puma, I purely think of aesthetic. And when I do think of Adidas, I do think of performance. do think of product,
like higher quality product than I do perceive Puma. But I was perceived Puma as like this, you know, style, like it's it looks better to a degree until lately. A lot of the shoes I'm seeing from Adidas are stunning that you guys have been posting lately.
Thomas (15:31.49)
Yeah, I mean, I can't think of a shoe that, I mean, it's so clean. This one has a marathon on it and a 10K. It's, you know, it still looks pretty fresh for a white shoe, like their design. What's that?
Josh (15:35.567)
my gosh, yeah.
Josh (15:40.355)
Really?
Josh (15:45.042)
Now is that the accessible super shoe that's more affordable or is that the super super shoe? Okay.
Thomas (15:50.894)
No, this is the super shoe. this is, wait. Yeah. So if you're talking about the Evo one, which is the $500 super light shoe. Yeah. This is the pro four. So this is the latest version of their, when you say accessible, it's still 250 bucks. Yeah. But yeah. So, and they actually just released a shoe that looks just like the Evo one. It's going to be available I think later this month on a small release.
Josh (15:57.431)
That's it. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (16:07.043)
Sure, yeah, very much relatively speaking.
Thomas (16:20.374)
It's called the Evo SL and it's actually the super foam from the race shoe in a date, like a daily trainer slash wear out kind of casual. it's, it's, it's, it's fantastic. It's one of my favorite shoes. Yeah.
Josh (16:35.329)
Interesting. Okay, so when when these the the brothers had you know had separated I heard that there was something about their wives not getting along I I heard that there was just a lot of problems there Yeah
Thomas (16:46.09)
I think there's two things. The wives apparently didn't get along, which again, if you've never been in a situation like that, they were sharing a villa and they had to live together basically, and they didn't like each other. So that's a problem that becomes a problem for the husbands right away. The other thing that's cited is, so.
Josh (16:57.357)
Yeah.
Josh (17:02.787)
Ehem.
Right.
Thomas (17:11.722)
Rudolph was conscripted to the military, you know, part of the Nazi party. And then after the war was tried by the allies on Nazi crimes and had to basically go into prison for a while. Meanwhile, Adi was running the business and doing all that. Rudolph feels like Adi had something to do with him getting into that situation.
Josh (17:35.737)
I I read that, why did they believe that? That's what I missed. Why did he believe that Adi had something to do with that?
Thomas (17:43.232)
You know, knowing that the wives didn't get along, I bet you his wife was chirping in his ear. Hey, while you were gone, guess what? know, honey's doing great over here.
Josh (17:51.705)
Yeah, yeah, okay. So where at what point, you know, in the looking at the like the grand time scale of these two brands. mean, Trail Running was like not until like 2000s even called Trail Running or perhaps but you know, when are these brands I mean, they they've dabbled in lots of different sports, they've had lots of different, you know, evolutions of their product and expressions of their product.
Thomas (18:09.645)
Yeah.
Josh (18:19.929)
Let's just dip into trail for a minute here and see like Help us understand what Tarex is from my perception Tarex feels like it has a big budget But from everything I've heard from you and Taylor and talking to other people Tarex and Adidas All they share in common is the name Adidas, but they don't share people in common. I share design teams. I don't share anything So what is Tarex?
Thomas (18:42.702)
I mean, they do share some ingredients. Like we're starting to see in some of their premium shoes, some of the same foams that you'll see in the road racing shoes, making it over into the agravics and stuff like that. But Terrex to me, this is just my perception of it, is a separate company. It's almost like a step sister, step company to Arita. So like...
Josh (18:47.363)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (18:55.0)
Okay.
Josh (19:03.993)
Yeah.
Yep.
Thomas (19:08.236)
You look at it and I was telling you when we visited Herzegovia and went to the Herzo offices, it's a Adidas is huge. It's like a college campus. And there's like one building that does Terrex and they're kind of like over there. didn't interact. Like we got to see behind the scenes at all the stuff in the running hall, all that stuff, labs, pro athlete, fitting areas, the assembly testing rooms, everything.
Josh (19:19.513)
Hmm.
Josh (19:27.435)
Yeah
Thomas (19:37.442)
And they're like, yeah, this Terrex is right over there in that building that used to be used by the Americans when they set up a base here in after World War II, which is really weird. There is actually a barracks that's now Tarex office, which was originally the main office of Adidas after it was built by the U S people coming in as a barracks. Yeah.
Josh (19:39.107)
There's Terrex
Josh (19:51.843)
Really?
Josh (20:01.333)
Interesting. okay. What about with Puma? I don't like, just like here in Paris, one of the things I love about Paris is that anytime I want to do a deep dive into a brand, there's a flagship store here so I can go see it. Even when I go into Puma, I don't get a clear understanding of who they are exactly. How would you describe Puma generally? Not even as like trail and then so Puma in general, and then what are they doing in trail?
Thomas (20:14.156)
Yeah.
Thomas (20:23.022)
Yeah.
Sometimes I feel like Puma is a dabbler and they kind of like, when I was first doing reviews, they didn't really have a shoe line. Then they came out with something they call FOS, F-A-A-S, and the FOS line. And they came out with a lineup and they were actually pretty decent shoes. I liked them a lot. And I actually ran a marathon in the Puma FOS 500.
Josh (20:28.633)
Mmm.
Josh (20:47.769)
Mm-hmm.
Thomas (20:55.224)
They were nice shoes. They looked great. And then they kind of started doing this experimental stuff where they were trying to create like unique shoes that they had proprietary, you know, Tekken and stuff like that. They kind of like were hit or miss, like even to run in, but.
Josh (21:09.891)
Mm-hmm.
Thomas (21:15.808)
For some reason, the Foss line just died out. And I, when I talked to retailers and stuff and tried to feel like, why don't you guys carry Puma? When they said that it's the distribution, we can't get, get the shoes. And even today, I think they're still struggling with that a little bit in running retail, but before we get to that, so the Foss line just dropped off and they kind of disappeared from running for, I don't know, close to maybe five, six years just gone.
Josh (21:45.337)
What were they doing? What was their core business?
Thomas (21:49.033)
You know, I think they got really into the lifestyle, stuff and apparently, you know, around the same time running came back, they started getting real big into basketball and some of the court sports. So recently a couple of years ago, they made a lineup of shoes that was like, was like, wow, this is incredible. Puma's back. We've got some really good shoes here, starting with like the DV eight.
Josh (21:53.035)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (22:15.203)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Thomas (22:16.02)
Nitro DV8 and they started with all these Nitro phones. So they came back and they had a really nice lineup of everything from kind of like tempo shoes to daily trainers, but they kind of weren't quite there with the race day shoe. And I say that with an Astro, even though Molle Cytl won bronze medal in Tokyo wearing the DV8 elite.
Josh (22:33.229)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (22:41.346)
Really?
Thomas (22:41.556)
I felt like it was a sub par shoot. Like you really shouldn't have been like, it wasn't a great shoe for an elite runner.
Josh (22:46.457)
Hmm.
Josh (22:50.777)
Quick question on that. Someone like Molly Seidel, when she's running, mean, she's probably, surely she's not wearing the same shoe that I can go buy off the shelf, right? I mean, are they like highly customizing per their elite? Really?
Thomas (23:02.196)
No, they actually, could buy the same shoe. There's only like, when we look at that, sometimes an athlete might be testing new materials. And then you can see like, they'll have the list of shoes that the athletes are wearing and it'll have like a little asterisk or a different name or, you know, beta or something like that. But for the most part, like,
Josh (23:12.919)
Okay.
Josh (23:25.197)
Got it.
Thomas (23:29.408)
In Chicago, I know that some people were testing next year's iteration of a shoe that's going to be available to the public, but they're using the foams and that kind of stuff and just kind of like proof of concept. and so for the most part now, I think that the Olympic shoe that Montecito wore was the exact DVA elite nitro that you could get. You know,
Josh (23:39.577)
Okay. Okay.
Josh (23:49.443)
Hmm, okay. Nice. And you thought that that shoe was just okay.
Thomas (23:56.076)
Yeah, it, the foam that they were using in that shoe was just your standard, nitrogen infused foam. don't know how familiar with phones, but that's it's they're nice. It's just a different way of, instead of compressed molding foam into a midsole, they heat up like a little puck and it almost explodes like popcorn creating the air pockets and the bubbles and stuff in the foam. And so it gets a really nice energy return of bounce. It's a lighter foam cause it's got more.
Josh (24:04.697)
little bit.
Josh (24:16.505)
Josh (24:19.929)
Okay, yes.
Thomas (24:25.902)
air in it. So they came out with that line. One of my first questions was, are you guys here to stay? And they were like, yeah, we're committed. And so, and they have been, and this is like the latest DV8 Nitro 3, and it's a really phenomenal shoe. It really is. It's a great shoe. I still feel like their race day shoe, the elite version of this, it's good. It's not
Josh (24:34.915)
Wow.
Josh (24:40.514)
Nice. Okay.
Josh (24:51.097)
Mm-hmm.
Thomas (24:54.092)
top tier, like I feel like the top tier where I do think Adidas beats him in the race day shoe category.
Josh (25:02.393)
What are their price points on that? What's the price point on the one you just showed us?
Thomas (25:05.71)
this one, I think there's one 60. So this one's your daily trainer that has a plate. So you can kind of see there, it's got the, what they call the power plate. It's a carbon resin plate, with the nitro foam that we were talking about and they keep playing with the foam formulas and getting them better. So they're bouncy responsive. One thing that Puma has, it's incredible is their Puma grip rubber. It's.
Josh (25:07.329)
Yeah. Okay.
Josh (25:12.972)
Okay.
Okay.
Josh (25:30.435)
Mm-hmm.
Thomas (25:32.2)
as good as anything else out there on the market. Adidas wings.
Josh (25:34.625)
It's not like a Michelin collaboration or a Goodyear collaboration, it's their own thing.
Thomas (25:38.668)
Yeah, there's a proprietary blend. and then Adidas uses continental rubber as their premium, premium foam. But yeah, there's a great shoe for daily training, especially if you like having that plate or a shoe that maybe you can pick up the pace in, if you want to run some tempo miles in it, it's it's medium weight. So yeah, it's a lot of fun.
Josh (25:43.915)
Okay. Interesting.
Josh (26:00.473)
How would you define, very simple question, a question you don't even bother with on your podcast, how do you define race day shoe? What makes something a race day shoe versus a trainer?
Thomas (26:11.418)
I mean, it's pretty simple. There's like characteristics. So first thing you want is weight. And that's why that $500 shoe is $500. It's the lightest on the market right now.
Josh (26:22.36)
Okay.
Thomas (26:22.594)
There are a couple of other brands that are bringing a super lightweight shoe to the market. But if it's just lightweight, that goes back to like flats, which you know, we had flats, they're super lightweight. They just didn't have any cushioning. So then the next step is you want to have that cushioning, a foam that's light, responsive, plenty of energy return.
Josh (26:28.674)
Okay.
Josh (26:32.294)
yeah.
Josh (26:36.748)
Yeah.
Thomas (26:45.27)
But the best part about those things is like, when you run a race now, like that old meme of people like hobbling upstairs after a marathon or, you know, being out for a week because they're limping because they ran a marathon. That's with the new foams that's gone because your legs. Yeah, pretty much. mean, you got to really, really throw down to get like cranky legs. The foams are so good and so protected now. Like
Josh (27:02.669)
Really?
easy.
That's incredible.
Thomas (27:14.88)
I've run, I ran, OBX marathon in an Adidas shoe that was the audio, audio boost, audio boost, which was very thin. It was probably like 10 millimeters in the forefoot. Now we're like looking at 30 in the, in the forefoot and higher 36 even,
Josh (27:21.688)
Uh-huh.
Josh (27:25.869)
Okay.
Thomas (27:36.684)
That thing, like when you, when I was done with that marathon, like my feet were killing me. Like you can't wait to get them off. Now with these foams, it really makes a difference and the energy return. And then you finish off with what we consider race day shoe typically has some component of a stiffening agent, which would be a plate. the case of Adidas, it's these power rods that they like to expose, but those come up.
Josh (27:48.525)
Hmm.
Josh (27:56.344)
Mm.
Thomas (28:02.102)
almost like metatarsals in your foot. So there's some stiffening agent that is giving you some rigidity and pop off the toe. But it also helps with these foams that are really soft and bouncy. It adds a little bit of stability and firmness to the shoe as well.
Josh (28:03.683)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (28:19.745)
You'll actually bring a unique perspective. Maybe I don't know that I know anyone else who was in this space dating back to 09. When Born to Run happened, Chris McDougall, who I've had on the podcast before, very enjoyable guy, fantastic writer, meaningful book to this culture. But everything that you just talked about would probably give him a heart attack. What?
Thomas (28:30.573)
Mm-hmm.
Thomas (28:43.47)
Well, yeah, but that's the thing. I, like I've run a race against Chris and, we were doing the hat 50 K and he was wearing those sandals. And during that time, his sandal lace broke. So I remember running past him as he's trying to figure out how to tie his shoe bag together. Right there. say, you know, I was glad I was wearing shoes. But.
Josh (28:52.651)
huh.
Josh (29:07.947)
Yeah. Right.
Thomas (29:11.552)
No, I really like, don't hate on people who enjoy a natural thing, but I think that the other thing that you can see in data right now is that these records are being broken and it's not because the shoes are doing the work for people.
Josh (29:14.531)
Sure. Yeah.
Josh (29:19.523)
Mm-hmm.
Thomas (29:26.274)
They are helping with like having more responsive phones and bounce and stuff like that, keeping your legs fresher. But it's really the, like I was saying, the recovery period, you're not down for three weeks after you run a marathon, you do a hard workout and you can come back the next day and have a good run. Like the phones are really helping people train harder, train longer, go higher distances and longer. So, you know,
Josh (29:30.808)
Yep.
Josh (29:49.911)
Yeah.
Thomas (29:55.052)
I don't think it's a bad thing if someone want, like I'm a big believer in mixing up your shoe rotation. I personally am not going to go run barefoot or something like that. But if you're concerned and you want to add one day of going to the infield of a track and running barefoot in the grass, you know, just to kind of like feel your feet out and that kind of stuff. I can't hurt.
Josh (30:17.901)
Yeah. Well, you just said makes me think of, I just watched a documentary the other day about steroids and sports and, not to say that I would equate the foam to steroid advantage, but my point was Barry Bonds, just because he took steroids, he still had to see the ball hit the bat and then he still had to have really fantastic mechanics and form and to see that ball go where it went. So I'm not saying,
Thomas (30:35.757)
Yeah.
Josh (30:44.861)
Yeah, because it has I mean, yeah, maybe steroids gave him strength hit it further He still had to be a very good player in order to do that. So I'm not making the case for steroids, but
Thomas (30:51.948)
Yeah. Go get yourself a pair of Alpha fly. See if you can break two hours in the marathon. You know, it's not, it's not going to happen. The, mean, it's funny. My personal, PR is in a pair of Kim Baris, which I don't know if you're familiar with that shoe. was Sauconese minimal shoes. So it's just a little slab of foam. There's not much, much to it. they're almost extinct at this point. yeah, but the.
Josh (30:57.337)
Absolutely. That's right. Yeah.
Josh (31:07.513)
I don't even know what that is. Nope.
Josh (31:18.221)
Really? Huh.
Thomas (31:21.314)
I've worn super shoes. done it. I think that there is a slight advantage to locking into a pace and having that responsive feel and maybe, is it pre-oception of like pace, coming down like with your foot strike, but, I, it's there. don't, I don't like people call them teeter shoes and this stuff.
Josh (31:32.921)
Mmm.
Josh (31:37.997)
Yeah.
Thomas (31:48.179)
Just put them on and see how you do. Yeah, you'll feel better and maybe, and if you can take a minute off your 5k or, you know, do that, then great. And I don't think it's hurting anybody and it's, everybody can get ahold of them.
Josh (31:49.505)
Yeah, you go try. Yeah.
Josh (32:03.127)
What do you know what shoe the woman, I'm sure you do, of course you do, the woman who just broke the record, what was she wearing?
Thomas (32:08.771)
I'm pretty sure that was the EVO 1. Yeah, I think so. So, I'm not 100 % sure, but in Chicago? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was the EVO 1.
Josh (32:11.468)
It was.
Josh (32:17.58)
Yes. Yeah.
Josh (32:22.435)
Does Tarex have an equivalent to that shoe? Do they have something that's just like they're putting their best foot forward? This is as good as it can be right now. Do they have something that they think is great?
Thomas (32:35.756)
Yeah, I think they do. I think that the one that we were talking about, the Graphics Speed Ultra, or the orange one with the...
Josh (32:41.173)
Mm-hmm. And that's the one that Tom Evans wears.
Thomas (32:45.29)
Is he the one who won the, is he this? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's he was, he was testing that shoe out and it's a, I liked that shoe a lot. The thing about it that I would more a little bit. So it's a little higher stack. It's got a narrow throat. like in between the forefoot and the heel, the kind of hourglass is in, which for me, I did a, little trail race in California in that shoe.
Josh (32:46.721)
Yeah, one Western States. Yeah.
Josh (32:51.192)
Okay.
Josh (32:57.571)
Mm-hmm.
Thomas (33:12.96)
And it was like almost straight up a hill, turn around, run down. And it was a hill that the path was kind of made by cows. So it had like divots and stuff in it. I had to really concentrate on landing on my forefoot because I felt like if I landed a little bit back or on my heel, that pivot point would be. Which is great if you're a really fast runner to get up there. I.
Josh (33:22.883)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (33:32.494)
You would turn.
Josh (33:36.312)
Yeah.
Thomas (33:38.75)
Not being a super fast runner. I'm I'm love running downhill, so I'll pick up the pace on the downhills, but going up, I'm like, you know, if it gets past a 5 % grade, I'm walking, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, it's like, screw it. I'll save the energy, but, you know, so I do feel the shoe. It has all the benefits of the road shoe, the cushion, the energy return. I'm not sure if that one, I forget.
Josh (33:44.067)
Yeah.
Josh (33:50.583)
Yeah, yeah, me too. Yeah.
Thomas (34:07.712)
if that one's plated or not, has something in it, think it does. But it's not like, I don't think it's the same as the rods in the other Adidas product. But it felt great. I loved it. And it had a sticky tacky grip on the outsole. I thought it was a lot of fun, but it definitely could be an ankle biter.
Josh (34:23.457)
Yeah. Yeah. When so when I see those that Tarek's line, I do feel like, you know, it feels like Adidas, it still has, you know, beyond just the logo, there's something there's like an essence of Adidas to it and Adidasness. What a what is what is a Puma? What are like, what makes what is their value proposition? What's their thing? Well, you know, what makes Puma Puma?
Thomas (34:39.49)
Yeah.
Thomas (34:48.372)
You know, I think now the team that's working there is really invested in creating a product that they feel like people can win in. And so they're going after people.
to kind of prove that, prove that out. And they're willing to take some risks. So, if you look at like their fast R that's on the road, it's a decoupled heel. It's weird looking. almost looks like goat hoofs or something like that. But you know, they're willing to try, which I commend them. They're willing to try some stuff that looks kind of far out. Like the fast R now has a, the carbon plate extends past the lip of the shoe. So it looks like it's got an underbite.
Josh (35:08.738)
Yeah.
Josh (35:21.453)
Yeah.
Josh (35:26.849)
Yeah.
Thomas (35:29.224)
But it, it, some of this stuff is working, so I can't, can't really say they're doing it wrong.
Josh (35:36.302)
Do you read that in any way like so they're that they're experiment that they're such an established brand but they're in this role of experimenting maybe that goes back to what you were saying about them of like their dabblers, so Do you see yeah, what do you think about that?
Thomas (35:49.538)
I mean, I would think that a lot of the stuff, if you're going to try experimental stuff, you're not thinking like, maybe it'll work. Maybe it won't work. Let's just give it a shot. And when you do that, some stuff is going to work. Some is not. So in that case, the dabbling would be it, you know, like there was a five case you that I never saw actually hit the market. so, and, and I don't mean dabbler in their current situation. I think they're committed.
Josh (36:13.379)
Yeah.
Josh (36:19.566)
Hmm.
Thomas (36:19.878)
What I meant was like they kind of phased in and out of running at different periods. Yeah, but like it is tough. Like you look at Ed Brand, like Adidas that has a history and like example, the Pro 4 took almost three years to come out because they couldn't come up with something better than the shoe they already had.
Josh (36:23.11)
I see. Got it, okay.
Josh (36:39.129)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (36:46.233)
Wow.
Thomas (36:46.476)
So their athletes were like testing and there were six iterations of this shoe before it actually came out and their athletes test this stuff and they're like, we're not going to put something out until it's better, which is goes against the shoe industry, which is every year you come up with it's typically upper change, full redo, upper change, full redo. it's like, yeah, you're getting a new shoe and
Josh (36:53.369)
Wow.
Josh (37:02.37)
every year.
Josh (37:07.414)
Yeah.
Josh (37:11.609)
Yeah.
Thomas (37:15.042)
but it's not tremendously new.
Josh (37:17.717)
Interesting. What do you, as we sort of wind down a little bit, I'm curious, so in the world of trail, as you're well aware, we've got brands like Speedland and Norda and these shoes that are popping up. mean, trail's growing quite a bit, but know, road's also growing quite a bit. So you see these mega established brands from the, know, dating back to the 20s, 30s, you know, the split and all this sort of stuff.
With Adidas and Puma, is there anything in road like that? mean, I see maybe Mount to Coast has popped up. Is there anything new? Is anyone kind of dabbling on that level? Micro brands?
Thomas (37:47.148)
I mean, there's lots of, yeah, there's lots of people coming into the space. mean, right now it's an interesting phase where apparel companies are trying to create a shoe. So you have rabbit tracksmith, these different brands. Like what's that?
Josh (38:01.411)
They're both, I didn't realize that they were doing shoes. Have they already released them? Maybe I'm just not paying attention. Okay.
Thomas (38:05.334)
Yeah. Yeah. You can get, you can get the, Elliot, runner from tracksmith and you can get the rabbit. forget the name of their shoe. but yeah, it's, they have a shoe now. So it'd be interesting if those can make it, but yeah, there's, we see a lot of brands like there's a 42 that there's these brands that, yeah, that are coming up that are.
Josh (38:29.192)
yeah.
Thomas (38:35.352)
I think that barrier to starting a shoe company is smaller. You mentioned a shoe company I love, Norda. I love their shoes. I'll wear them on the trail. I'll wear them, know, kicking around town. They're just a great, great shoe.
Josh (38:49.645)
Yeah. Do you wear that approach shoe? That was the one I almost bought recently, but I ended up not. But I've heard great things about it.
Thomas (38:56.994)
They are, they have the, are you talking about the one, the two or the that's the three. Yeah. Yeah. That I'll tell you that fits snugly enough. You could run trails in it if you wanted to. yeah, it's, it's got a nice fit. I, I still like laces a little bit better and they're coming out with a speed trail shoe, their version of a race day trail shoe.
Josh (39:00.633)
You know, it's like a slip-on. It's like, it's like not like a true runner. 03, okay.
Josh (39:08.59)
Really?
Really? Huh.
Josh (39:22.231)
Hmm. Yeah.
Thomas (39:24.553)
it should be hitting early this next year.
But yeah, Nick and Willa, if you want to get them on the show, Nick's great. He'll talk about the shoe and then like where they came from.
Josh (39:36.795)
that'd be a blast. I think it'll be interesting to see what Satisfye does because they're kind of maybe talking in some, there's some overlap on that Venn diagram of Satisfye and Norda. Be very curious to see what happens.
Thomas (39:47.798)
Yeah. Well, it's it. did a collab shoe together, but it does sound like Satisfy's coming out with their own shoe.
Josh (39:54.973)
yeah, I think they're releasing it at the running event. Are you gonna be there? Yeah.
Thomas (39:57.088)
Okay, there we go. Yeah, it was funny because we went and visited them in Paris while we were there for the Olympics. So we went to their, I guess their studio space where they... Yeah, yeah. So, and they didn't show us any shoes because right then they were launching the Hoka collaboration, the latest one they did. Yeah.
Josh (40:03.383)
Really? cool. Nice.
Josh (40:10.125)
that little thing behind the gate back there. Yeah, that's cool.
Josh (40:19.839)
Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I guess they didn't have
Thomas (40:22.998)
And speed lane, think is taking it the other direction. Kevin and their team there are, know, Dave Dumbrow and Kevin, they're coming at the approach like, if we're gonna, without limits, make the best shoe that we feel like we can make.
This is what it is. And you know, that it does go to show you, like, I think everybody says, we're making the best shoe that we can make. Some people cut back on corners as far as like, okay, if we make this shoe, these materials, we're going to have to change these so we can price point it at a place. That's why these shoes are more expensive with the Norda and the.
Josh (41:00.067)
Right.
Hmm.
Thomas (41:03.04)
Speedlands are like, no, we're just, if you want to buy it, buy it. If you don't, don't, but we're going to put the best components that we can into it. And this is the price. So I kind of respect that.
Josh (41:10.871)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they're both former Baltimore guys, right? They were at Under Armour for a while.
Thomas (41:17.835)
They were, mean, they've been everywhere. They've been Nike, Under Armour, you know, all over the place, but yeah.
Josh (41:20.493)
Yeah. Yeah, they are as you know, lot of people have been giving credit to Jean-Marc Bajan and well-deserved obviously lately for his time at Solomon and North Face. But my goodness, those two guys have been at every major brand maybe other than those two, you know, in their careers.
Thomas (41:37.036)
Yeah. Well, you have to understand too, the industry is not huge and sometimes they get contracted to help when someone else has a problem, you know, so some of these people that you know in the industry who have brands, may be consulting or helping, you know, dial stuff in. So it's actually kind of interesting. once you get to meet all the characters, like how it all fits together.
Josh (41:41.347)
Yeah.
Josh (41:45.239)
Yep. Yep.
Josh (41:54.113)
Right. Yeah.
Josh (42:03.307)
Yeah. Well, last question in here, rounded out on Puma versus Adidas. If you had to give me an elevator explanation of their value proposition, what's the value proposition for both of those two brands?
Thomas (42:15.459)
I would think if I was, I mean, they're doing a good job in marketing, but if I, if I was marketing for Adidas, I would lean into heritage and athlete stories and how they've helped the sport grow from day one and really tap into that. It's in our DNA. It's the reason why companies like Nike exists because they, you know, he's fighting against these more expensive shoes coming out of,
Josh (42:23.82)
No.
Josh (42:29.816)
Yep.
Josh (42:41.016)
Yeah.
Thomas (42:44.046)
You know, Europe and, and stuff. They play a major role in the sport and have been part of every aspect of running from day one. And I would take the Jesse Owens and put that on my side and go from there. if I'm Puma, I would then have to counter that with that's great. We're the innovators. We are the ones who are going to take the sport.
Josh (42:45.785)
Yeah.
Josh (42:53.153)
Every movement, yeah, yeah.
Josh (43:00.885)
Yeah, yeah.
Thomas (43:13.108)
into the next, into the next level. And, know, I think that there could be an argument for both. look at, the Puma lineup and they've got a shoe in almost every category. That's pretty solid. I would say I'd love to see what they're coming up with next for race day and that kind of stuff. But overall they have a really good lineup. Adidas, it gets confusing. You've got the supernova line, the Adistar line, the, you know,
Josh (43:16.365)
Mmm, yeah.
Josh (43:33.367)
Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas (43:43.05)
Adi zero line, you know, where do, where do I fall into that is probably difficult for, and even ultra boost. Where do I fall in as a consumer? Like how do I decide what Adidas shoes is good for me? So I think that there are noise, they could cut out a lot of some of the noise and really just lean into this is our running offering.
Josh (43:47.715)
Yeah.
Josh (44:03.021)
Focus. Yeah. Thomas Neuberger, Believe in the Run. I'm a big fan. We'll put a bunch of links in the show notes to articles on your reviews on all this stuff. And I really appreciate you taking the time and joining me from Baltimore.
Thomas (44:16.994)
That's great Josh. I'm hoping one of these days I'll get back to the trails and maybe, maybe I can run next to you for a little while and.
Josh (44:21.281)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I can keep up, I'm sorely out of shape here. I'm trying to become a road runner right now. It's slow going.
Thomas (44:30.112)
I don't know. think being a trail runner really does help your road running, but yeah, you know.
Josh (44:34.849)
Hmm. I believe it. It's coming along. mean, Paris is not too shabby of a place. It's just, you know, everything is hard in Paris to get from my door to a place that I can run. Everything is just hard. Whatever. First world problems.
Thomas (44:45.42)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know Paris that well. We had a fun time running around, but we just stuck to the Tames. not even the Tames. That's That's it. London. Yeah. It's easy. It's an hour train ride, but yeah.
Josh (44:51.105)
Yeah. Yeah, I love it. the the Sen. Yeah. Yeah. You just go to London every day and run much easier. Nice. Well, I'll be following along and everything got going and I hope we cross paths in person.
Thomas (45:08.492)
All right, great. really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and I'm glad that Taylor can be a good resource for you. So yeah. All right. Awesome.
Josh (45:13.352)
man, he's phenomenal. All right. Thanks, man. See you.
